Frog Dissection

[Mickey]

Ds will be 9 in a couple of months and he has the opportunity to take a science class and study frogs (we home school). At the end of the class, they each dissect a frog. When I mentioned it to ds, he thought it would be interesting to do it (and he's not the least bit squeamish), but he asked me if it's cruel to do this--he's the kind of kid who will take a live spider outside instead of kill it and he avoids stepping on ants. I explained that he wouldn't be killing the frog--it's already dead and preserved and there's no blood. He was ok with that and says he wants to take the class.

The instructor replied to my inquiry about the class and said that she believes that one can never truly understand biology and living things until they thoroughly investigate ALL parts. She then explained that she will start the class with a group discussion of animal rights/welfare and how we should always respect living creatures to the fullest extent possible. She went on to say that she finds that children tend to gain respect for the animals when they see how complex and wonderful an organism really is.

But I'm wondering how you feel about dissection in general. And about it with regard to his age. (The instructor said she won't set age limits because it depends on each child's maturity level.) I know the animal is dead, but I don't know how it got dead--are they bred for this purpose? Do they suffer at all? Do you think it's cruel or morally wrong to participate in dissection?

Off to do some research on the subject (I've already found a site that is very against it, but seems extreme), but I'd really appreciate your thoughts!

Mickey

[vea29]

I personally am against it....basically because it grosses me out...I don't know anything about it....but I think I would be against it any how because I think they ar used specifically for this sort of thing...I don' think they die of Natural causes :newwink: ....and like I said it grosses me out anyway so it really doesn't make a difference to me.

I do think 9 is too young...I think they should be in H.S.But this is just my opinion.

[Suz]

Hi Mickey,
Haven't been on here in a long while - just thought I'd check it to see what's new.
Anyway, I think that it is a wonderful learning opportunity!!! And if your son says he's OK with it then go for it - kids let us know.
My kids are back in school this year - but we homeschooled years previously - we took a science class where the kids dissected a cow's eyeball - they learned so much about the eye - was very cool! My kids were 7 and 9 at the time.
My fil is a surgeon - I'm sure that as a youngin' he learned quite a bit from dissection - thank goodness for that sort of training!
Hope he learns alot!! :)

[PamE]

Hi, Mickey! :) I can't answer your questions about the cruelty of the issue, but what about having him go through a virtual frog dissection first to see what he thinks? Not exactly the real thing, but it may prepare him a bit more.

[angie r]

It sounds like a great learning experience to me. I'd let my 9 yo do it if wanted to. I don't see it as a cruelty issue.

[Diane]

Although it would gross me out too (we did it in High School... yuck)... LOL I think it would be a wonderful learning experience for him. I'd definitely let him if he wanted to. Wow... I can't believe he's going to be 9 years old already! 8o

Diane...

[vea29]

ooops...gues I'm in the Minority here....Guess it's just because I avoided Biology all my life....no pun intended.

Btw...It was 1:30 am when I responded origanally....It may have been alittle off the wall.

[Melody]

If it were my son he would have kittens over it because he collects frogs. lol
I do remember it happening in high school. I don't remember doing the dissection so I probably wussed out.
I don't remember how it was explained but do remember the science teacher saying the frogs don't suffer. Not sure if they are injected with something?
I don't think it's cruel. It would be cruel to do this to a living frog but if it's dead he's not feeling anything.
Only you would really know if your son is too young or not. Every kid is different. I do like Pam's idea of a virtual dissection first.

[JAK]

I did it in school (7th or 8th grade) and then in 11th grade we dissected a fetal pig. I thought it was gross both times but I did learn a lot about the ways our bodies worked. I never thought about where the frog came from or how it died. The fetal pig made me sad though. Maybe because I was older.
I can't believe that MB is 9 already, but if he want's to do it and you feel he is mature enough to do it, then let him. My ds is 9 also and I would let him do it if he wanted to because I know it would be something that would really interest him. He's sensitive so it may bother him that it's dead and he may ask about how it died, but I'm not sure. I'd take MB lead and go from there.

[AnnW]

Is it morally wrong to dissect a frog? I don't think so. I guess if you felt it was, you probably shouldn't eat beef, chicken, pork..... since they are raised for slaughter. I don't have any problem with the the ethics of dissection. I find it a little gross but a great learning experience.

[imamama]

It would be cruel to do this to a living frog

In HS biology, we had to watch the teacher paralyze a live frog and dissect it so we could see the organs working. It was the most horrible thing ever. We also had to dissect dead frogs, along with a bunch of other stuff. Fortunately, my lab partner had a crush on me so he did the cutting and I did the identifying. Ack :sick: ! We did the fetal pig in college, too. Horrible
But, back to Mickey's question. I think it's a wonderful learning opportunity for MB, and it's wonderful that he's ready for it. I can't imagine being ready at 9, I wasn't ready at 16, 17, 18, 19, 20!! As long as he's positive it won't come back to haunt him, I say let him do it!

[Mickey]

Thank you all for your replies! I really appreciate them!

Talked to dh about it and he was excited and thought it sounded great. Told him I thought ds might be a little young and he said that he dissected when he was 10 or 11 in England. I didn't do that here until I was 15, in high school (and many people did not want to do it--I had a guy partner and I had to do it or we would have gotten an F :rolleyes: ).

While I do think he might be a bit young, I'm a bit torn about it generally speaking--I know Jen said she learned a lot and so did Suz's kids, but is it really necessary to do that to learn about the animal? I did find an online dissection site, Pam, and I'm going to let him go through that (if he wants to) and see what he thinks.

He's now saying he just doesn't feel right about it, so he probably won't do it. We can always do it next year (or the year after) if he wants to then.

Thank you!

Mickey

[Mickey]

Is it morally wrong to dissect a frog? I don't think so. I guess if you felt it was, you probably shouldn't eat beef, chicken, pork..... since they are raised for slaughter. I don't have any problem with the the ethics of dissection. I find it a little gross but a great learning experience.

Very good point! And we do eat meat! And we don't HAVE to eat it to survive.

[Mickey]

In HS biology, we had to watch the teacher paralyze a live frog and dissect it so we could see the organs working...

That is extremely disgusting! Maybe that would be necessary if you were all going to be doctors, but ugh! I just can't imagine witnessing that! So the frog was alive? At this dissection site, they dissect a preserved frog and a pithed frog (they sever the spinal cord). Here's the site if anyone's interested:

http://curry.edschool.virginia.edu/go/frog/

[Melody]

, but is it really necessary to do that to learn about the animal?
Mickey
Necessary for the children or in general. I do think that animal testing is important. Sorry animal lovers. I love them too, but even more so I love the fact that there are so many medications to heal sick people and medical procedures that would not have been successful otherwise.

[AnnW]

Ya'll are just way nicer than me, I find I keep sreaming IT'S A FROG!!!!!!!!!! LOL
the only thing i would be considering is the gross out factor.

[Melody]

Ds2 would be bawling if he heard that! LOL
And it's a dead frog at that. I know I couldn't do it because of the gross out factor too but am glad other people can. I know when I was a kid and caught some fish I was happy about it. Then I took them home. And heard the rule, if you catch it, you clean it. :nervous: I managed it all but cutting off the head. I cried until my brother took over. Still can't eat fish!

[imamama]

That is extremely disgusting! Maybe that would be necessary if you were all going to be doctors, but ugh! I just can't imagine witnessing that! So the frog was alive? At this dissection site, they dissect a preserved frog and a pithed frog (they sever the spinal cord). Here's the site if anyone's interested:

http://curry.edschool.virginia.edu/go/frog/

Yep, alive and hopping around one minute and paralyzed and opened up the next. Then the teacher chlorformed it after she was done. :sick: I think that's way too much for kids in high school to handle. I could see it in Anatomy and Physiology in college, but not high school. I think it's great that you're leaving it up to MB to decide. I'd definitely try to get him to try it online first, since he may be having second thoughts. Good luck with the outcome!

[kat]

Ya'll are just way nicer than me, I find I keep sreaming IT'S A FROG!!!!!!!!!! LOL
the only thing i would be considering is the gross out factor.

LOL! That's what I said.

[kat]

We ate frog legs growing up. Loved 'em.

[Mickey]

Necessary for the children or in general. I do think that animal testing is important. Sorry animal lovers. I love them too, but even more so I love the fact that there are so many medications to heal sick people and medical procedures that would not have been successful otherwise.

I'm for medical testing, too...MB and I have discussed this as well--he was appalled to hear that they test on animals and I told him that if they didn't, we wouldn't have the drugs and operations that save our lives today. We talked about putting value on a life and that, like it or not, an ant's life isn't valued as much as a bunny or a deer--if you hit a deer on the road, they move it to the side of the road until someone can pick it up and take it to the dump (and I've heard dog food plant, too!). And people are valued the most (by most people anyway). So, I'm with you on that. I'm just not sure I see the point of a frog being bred and killed so my 8 yo can dissect it. If he were a medical student or biology major, sure--I totally see the point. Not sure if I see the point for kids...especially ones this young.

Mickey

[Mickey]

Yep, alive and hopping around one minute and paralyzed and opened up the next. Then the teacher chlorformed it after she was done. :sick: I think that's way too much for kids in high school to handle. I could see it in Anatomy and Physiology in college, but not high school. I think it's great that you're leaving it up to MB to decide. I'd definitely try to get him to try it online first, since he may be having second thoughts. Good luck with the outcome!

He wanted to do it online--pulled up the site and got halfway through and he turned his head and said it's making him feel sick and it's disgusting and he doesn't want to do it! Problem solved! LOL!

[Mickey]

Ya'll are just way nicer than me, I find I keep sreaming IT'S A FROG!!!!!!!!!! LOL
the only thing i would be considering is the gross out factor.

LOL! But it was some other baby frog's MOM!!! (Bambi did a job on me as a kid! ;))

[AnnW]

LOL! But it was some other baby frog's MOM!!! (Bambi did a job on me as a kid! ;))


I am sure that nice steak you had for dinner had a mother too!!!!!! ;)

[Diane]

He wanted to do it online--pulled up the site and got halfway through and he turned his head and said it's making him feel sick and it's disgusting and he doesn't want to do it! Problem solved! LOL!

LOL... poor kid! At least it was online and all you had to do was turn it off. Maybe next year, or the year after... :)

Diane...

[Linda/NE]

We did the dissection thing in high school too. Really don't remember much about it.

I think one's attitude about animals and their place in the life chain is determined by how and where they grew up and what they were taught as a child. Growing up on a farm raising animals for comsumption is a way of life and a means of making a living. There is a sense of superiority to animals. (Animals were sacrificed and comsumed in the Bible.) For the same reason I don't get attached to pets to where I think of them as part of the family. Therefore, dislike for dissection of animals is nothing more than the gross out factor.

Glad you were able to find cyber help with the issue. :)

[vea29]

He wanted to do it online--pulled up the site and got halfway through and he turned his head and said it's making him feel sick and it's disgusting and he doesn't want to do it! Problem solved! LOL!
Poor kid....I know I could never do it either.