Vieques to bomb or not to bomb

[arianna]

MM! With more exercises planned for the next few weeks, this obviously is a huge topic here on the island. I know we have alot of military people here on the boards. What do you think of the practice ?

http://cnn.looksmart.com/r_search?l&izch&key=Puerto+Rico&newmethod=1&skip=10&se=387&source=FastSpider&horizontal=0&template=searchLayout2.dhtml&search=us302562;

ßß!

[Lynda/WA]

I have to confess that I haven't heard much about this topic. That said I can say that I was stationed at a bombing range in AZ (Gila Bend AFAF). I'm told that every pilot who when to the Gulf War first trained there because the conditions were similar. So, I can speak in general. Army, Navy (rarely), Marines and Air Force all trained at this range. Some of it was jets strafeing (rapid firing bullets), some was EOD (Explosive Ordinance) training to expode and nuetralize bombs, and some things I'm not aware of. They shot at bulls-eye targets and at vehicle exteriors/ scrap metal set up to look like convoys.

I am wondering about a couple of things. The articles said that the protestors say there has been an increase in things like cancer due to the noise. How far away from the actual bombing area do these people live? I get more noise from the local roads than I ever got from the range and I lived on the base. Since there are other ranges in different locations (ie AZ) has there been an increase in these diseases at other locations? I never heard of this being a problem in Gila Bend. In fact the local Native Americans had an increase in adult onset Diabetes and research has linked it to the change in eating/ exercise habits as they have become more *Americanized*. I'd say the locals have probably had a change in lifestyle in the last 60 years and that is a major factor.

Since this training has been going on since 1941, how many people have lived in the same house for 60 years? A number of years ago there were complaints of noise pollution at Luke AFB. One source pointed out that absolutely none of the houses predated the base therefore none of the people owned their home before the base existed. In other words they moved into an area knowing there was noise and then complained. Can you imagine someone buying a house next to a railroad track then protesting the noise? Same thing happens with airports. People buy a house near an airport and then complain about *noise pollution*. So, how many of these residents chose to live in the area they are now complaining about knowing the training was conducted there? I find it hard to believe that in 1941, the military decided to start bombing exercise next to a residentail area. It's more likely that the training area came first. The people working at the area wanted to live near where they worked and a residential community started growing. That's what happened around Luke AFB. Same thing with Travis AFB (CA). The locals around Travis were very smart though. They limited growth up against the flightline just so they never needed to worry about this and risk losing the base.

Speaking of Luke AFB (in Phoenix AZ). At one time there were two AFBs near Phoenix. Both served completely different functions. Protesters (in the late 80s?) complained about noise and the planes taking up air space that they wanted to go to the expanding local airport. One of the bases was closed during the first round of base closures (rightly so to my mind). All of a sudden the non-military locals realized how much money was generated by a base in the local economy. Entire families move into the area and support local businesses. When these families left so did their business (surprise surprise!). Protests over the remaining base rapidly died down. They really didn't want to lose the remaining base. A group to save the base was formed. I've heard of some areas that had bases close and are in hurting shape without the local economies largest employer (ie Chanute AFB in IL). Every local business is impacted when thousands of people suddenly move out. In fact that was one of the things considered when Congress decided which bases to close - impact on the local economy. How much of an impact would there be on Puerto Rico if the Navy were to leave? And don't kid yourself that they would stay for very long if they couldn't train anymore. What use would a base be? Sometimes you have to be careful what you ask for. I seem to remember that when the military was restricted to base in Okinowa (after the rape of a young girl) the local businesses protested and talk of the American's leaving died down. They suddenly realized how much money was spent locally by the very people they were complaining about.

Finally, I think the police were absolutely correct to arrest any protestors that trespassed onto the federal land.
Terrorism is a very real concern on a military base. I know people that have survived bombings and suspect a former co-worker was in the Kenya embassy bombing again in the news. I've never seen a list of the 12 dead Americans so I don't know if he died but he was assigned to work there. He was even under special orders not to wear a uniform to reduce his chances of being a terrorist target. We (at Travis AFB CA) had been reminded of Waco prior to the Oklahoma City bombing. Even though I don't remember there being an official increase in alertness we were reminded of basic security such as watching for people not belonging in the area. With McVeigh again in the news and Ben Ladins cohort being sentenced (and whatever threat put the middle east Navy ships out to sea) the threat of terrorism at all military basis has increased. They can't let people go trapsing around were they want. And yes, even protestors can be a threat. When I was on a deployment in Germany we went to the East West German border (obviously many years ago!). We had equipment to monitor electronic transmittions in a couple of boxes behind trucks. I'd say you could fit 3 of these boxes in a semi truck. Not very big but large enough to fit a couple of people and some desks in. A group of protestors got it in their heads we were transporting nukes to the German AB we were staying at. They set up protests in front of the gates. We all had to stay out of sight because there was a concern a protestor would start shooting at us.

I would want to know if they could use some of the newer training methods. With the huge slashes in funding for training it is very possible they haven't been able to. One of the systems we used was an infared (?) system. Basically the plane shot nothing but a beam. The target would then read how accurate the pilot (who was actually flying a plane) was at hitting their target. This couldn't exclusively be used. They still needed to really shoot sometimes.


BTW - is Voodoo very big down there? I went out with a couple of Puerto Rican guys (15 yrs ago). One of the guys had had the same girl friend for ages. He would go out with other girls on the side but always still had her as his *steady* girl friend. I didn't know about her and went out with him once. I didn't feel like going out with him again but appearently after that single date he broke up with his girl friend because he wanted to be with me. I didn't know any of this (didn't care either). I couldn't figure out why this girl was always giving me these evil looks. Finally, someone told me to be careful of her because she hated me for *stealing* her boyfriend and had put a Voodoo curse on me! Not sure exactly what the curse was but it appearently didn't work! It didn't bother her that he had gone out with other girls the entire time they were dating since he never broke up with her for them. I was told she was also from Puerto Rico.

[arianna]

MM! Linda I could really use you knowledge and help. Where could I find a list of Navy bases that are simular to Vieques in the sense that live bombs have been dropped ? I'd like to compare the environmental effects against what the Government and the "people" have been saying now. I am having a hard time locating information from an unbiased source re: Vieques. I don't think you can trust the studies done by scientist here. It's too easy to present the data in the way you wish to without having another source to compare it to.
About the Voodoo thing. What's practiced here is called Santeria. Though the main religion is Catholicism, even they believe somewhat in Santeria. The Priests use Catholic Saints in place of their idols to apease their catholic customers. I believe, but do don't fear this practice. ßß!

[Lynda/WA]

Ari - Sorry, I'm not any help with Navy bases. I was Air Force and even though I was stationed at a bombing range I couldn't tell you what types they used there much less any place else within the Air Force. I wouldn't even know how to go about looking for the information. The Navy has a different structure than the Air Force and even the Air Force has changed methods since I left. When I was in we had bases that were mainly dedicated to a specific function and fell under a command that dealt with that function. For instance you could have a base that was a training base (ie Lackland Air Force Base). The whole base was geared to training. In the case of Lackland it was set up to bring in people for their first taste of the military and teach basic principles. They also had areas that were almost like a college campus in that you had places to sleep (ie dorms) and places to teach. If you were to have looked at a map of all the Air Force bases you would have seen the name of the base with three letters behind it. (ie TAC, SAC, MAC, ESC) Those have all changed since then but I think the Air Force still uses 3 letters. If you go to the Navy's website they may have a map of all bases. Look for yours and see if there is some kind of a designator behind it. If so, look for other bases with the same designator. I can't say for sure there will even be one or that the Navy even uses them. At least for the Air Force that meant they had the same mission. By the same mission I mean in a large sense like a training mission. That doesn't mean that they do the exact same thing as any other base. Just that they may do something similar.
I whole heartedly agree with you that both sides can make any data appear to support their own cause and you'd need details on the data to see if it shows a true picture or not. But I can't really help you with comparing incidents of a disease at this site compared to other sites. I do suspect that it has more to do with changes in lifestyle though. My reasoning is because everywhere that American's go our lifestyle follows. And since we have an unhealthy lifetyle (in general) compared to others that means the area picks up unhealthy habits. The main bad habit being eating habits. Fast food started with the Americans and spread everywhere we move or visit.
One would also think that if the bombing was such a health hazard that those closest to it would be most at risk. If that's the case the nationals that work on base would have the highest incidents. Usually when a national gets a job on base they keep it forever (from my experience with other bases). So you should have a number of local people that have worked on base nearly their entire lives. I don't think you can just go off of where people live. The reason being that those living closest to the American bases tend to pick up more American habits. And as I mentioned before those habits tend to be unhealthy. Off course the locals that work on pace are also the ones most likely to pick up the bad habits first. It's just too easy to run over to the base Burger King or bowling alley for lunch!
You would also think that the pilots dropping these bombs would be even more at risk. They are the ones closest to them. As well as the clean up crews. My DH was a heavy equipment operator at Gila Bend. After the training the Explosive guys would go in and ensure that nothing unexploded was left. Then DH would go in and clean out the scrap metal. You can't leave the scrap stuff and rocks because there is a risk of something rickeschaing (sp) off and flying back and downing the plane. They only used soft targets (ie take the engine out of vehicles even though those engines didn't run). So, DH was actually walking around down were they had practiced. I would suspect that they are doing something similar on the ground by you. The explosive guys did use protective suits on occasion but it was incase of an explosion. Like the bomb guys you see on tv from the cops. Not to protect from chemicals. I don't think the same type of bombs were used where I was stationed as by you.
Sorry I can't be any more help.

As for the other stuff - I wasn't worried when she cursed me since I didn't believe. I think curses can work if you believe in them. Sort of a self fullfilling prophesy.

[AnnW]

Did you see that President Bush has ordered the military to stop the bombing and to move out?
How does everyone feel about that there?

[arianna]

MM! Bush just restated the agreement that Clinton and the former Governer had already decided upon. Things are tense here to say the least. This is so very political and I really don't think that the public is concerned with the environment as much as they are with the political status they themselves set.
This whole thing reiderates back to our status as a commonwealth, rather than a state or Goddess forbid, independant. Fidel was already knocking on our door offering help with the Vieques Issue ! No thank you Czar Castro.
The female Governer is making abigger mess of things here rather that helping to solve the very many problems the island has. I hope she doesn't do too much damage in the next 4 years .
ßß!

[AnnW]

Yikes! about Fidel..that would worry me too.

So this agreement that ends in 2003 was from Clinton? I was reading that the Navy and "conservative" Congress are really mad at Bush for saying they are going to pull out.
Rumsfeld was on CNN today saying they will find another place.