Ban dodgeball?

[Lynda/WA]

One of today's topics on radio was about dodgeball and other playground games similar to it. Many schools in many states have begun banning these games. Recently a sports phsycologist (at a south east college - South Carolina maybe?) wrote an article in which he named his hall of shame of games. Included in the list was such games as Duck Duck Goose, Musical Chairs, Red Rover Come Over, Dodge Ball and others. He said these are cames that encourage children to pick on others, encourage bullies and teach aggression. He also said that these games separate those that are skilled from those that aren't and therefore create distinctions between the children instead of equality. His article brought up all of these other games and was the motivation behind the topic but only dodgeball was addressed on the radio show and how schools have already begun banning it.
Do you think dodgeball should be banned and why or why not?

[kat]

Too bad they aren't more concerned with violence on TV, in movies, in music, in video games.

[AnnW]

My ds heard this being discussed on tv a while back and he said "this is what happens when grownups get involved in kids' games. They make too much out of just playing"
He sumed up my sentiments very nicely.

[Linda/NE]

I hadn't heard of this on this level. At my boys' last school they weren't allowed to play dodgeball after they started throwing the balls to hard. But these SAME teachers allowed them to do back flips out of the swings on the play ground!!

It's late and I'm not thinking too clearly, but it seems to me those games are only about aggression and bullying if the adult supervising allows that kind of behavior to be tolerated. I can remember playing most all those games, and while yes the weaker/not so talented ones were the first out, it also taught us about game strategy and survival of the fittest. I think we all understood that even if we despised the class jock, we needed him on our team to have the best advantage.

[Diane]

I'm not sure that I played all of these games but most of them sound pretty familiar to me. :) I'm sure that I wasn't that good at playing every game I played... but if I didn't play well and if/when somebody did bully or tease me about it... I think that it much always made me more determined to try harder and do better.

I'll never forget how horrid I was at playing basketball. I couldn't make a basket to save my life. LOL I remember the HOURS I would spend practicing and practicing... trying to better myself. I needed/wanted to prove not only to my friends that I could do well, but also to myself. :) I'll never forget how NOBODY ever wanted me on their team and how I was always the last one to be chosen and how everybody would moan and groan when they'd get stuck with me on their team. LOL It WAS embarrassing... and yes, it made me feel absolutely awful... but it was THAT awful/embarrassing feeling that made me feel even more more determined and to work harder to get to where I needed/wanted to be. I'll never forget the feeling of pride that I felt when the next game came up and I shocked the heck out of my classmates by making one basket after another. I'm not saying teasing and bullying is good thing because it definitely isn't... but sometimes it may not always be a bad thing. I certainly don't think that it left me with any negative or emotional feelings. LOL I honestly think it's the adults who are making such of a big deal out of something that really isn't. What a shame it is that some of these kids will never be allowed too play some of these fun games...


Diane... :wave:

[kat]

It's late and I'm not thinking too clearly, but it seems to me those games are only about aggression and bullying if the adult supervising allows that kind of behavior to be tolerated.

That sounds pretty level headed. I agree that alot of playground problems could be headed off before they start with a little intervention from supervising teachers.
Ann, what a clever young man you ds is too. Why don't we let kids play and intervene when it crosses the line into something else.

[Mickey]

I can see dodge ball being a problem--I was hit in the face pretty hard in school when we were playing it (heads were off limits, but not everyone had great aim). But I don't see a problem with the other games for the reason mentioned. I think supervision is important, though.

[Amy2]

I remember Dodge Ball being a NIGHTMARE as a kid. The strong kids, mostly the boys (and my dh confesses he was one of them) would try their best to cream the other kids. There was no "safe space" so the little kid, or the chicken s*** kid (me) was crouched in the corner getting hurt. Usually I just jumped in front of the first ball that looked relatively tame and put myself "out."

Musical Chairs can work for all kids, because if you happen to be standing in front of a chair, you can grab it. It gets competetive at the very end. When we have played it here for parties, we usually have the kid who is "out" be the one to remove the chair, then he/she gets to eat a snack or treat while the others finish. It doesn't usually seem too traumatic.

The kids around here LOVE Duck, duck, goose. My ds will invent friends and play it with "them" running around the yard. (We ALL love Duck, duck, goose!) If the same kids keep getting chosen, we say "okay, raise your hand if you haven't had a turn!" and then the kids are asked to choose one of them.

Red Rover is hard because only the strongest can break through, but you join a team if you can't break through, so it's kind of a positive thing, I think.

I guess I'm agreeing with those who say "adult supervision" because that can really change the game, but Dodge Ball, while I don't think it should be banned, should be a choice game, not a requirement in my opinion.

Amy

[AnnW]

I can remember not loving dodge ball either, but I don't remember it being a mandatory game where I was forced to play. I know at my kids' school, they play many games during recess..four square, dodge ball, jacks, kick ball. I know that my son was a big kick ball kid but he got frustrated with some of the kids cheating so now he is playing four square. I would have a problem with kids being forced to play a game that they didn't want to play, but if the kids want to play it, why not?

[Mickey]

I don't think anyone should have to play any game they dont' want to play, but when I was in school, we played it in gym class and it wasn't an option. I'm sure things have changed since then, though.

[Lynda/WA]

The complaint of the author wasn't over the safety of the game but over the *equality* of the game. The sports phsycologist felt that games were one child picks another are going show children that some children are popular and others are not. He felt these games teach the stronger and smarter to pick on the weaker. I guess Duck Duck Goose was on his list because the popular kids will get picked more often. Musical chairs was probably on his shame list because children may push to get a chair. I think we're getting way too PC! I don't think he was just speaking about gym class either. I've never heard of musical chairs in gym class.

Funny a couple of you should say that the smaller kids had a harder time at dodgeball when you were kids. There were a number of men that called in and said they had been small for their age. They loved the game because they were able to avoid the ball and this was the one game they could excel in. They pointed out that a bigger kid is a bigger target and that smaller kids tend to be quicker. Larger children not only have farther to move to get out of the way but they also may have had a growth spurt and be more uncordinated because of that. At least on DS's baseball team many of the larger kids are slower runners. Maybe its more a difference between girls and boys (at least in our generations) than between big and small. that could be why some of the women on this board had more problems then the boys when they were children. I was one of those physical failures. I just didn't play.

DS's school does have a form of dodgeball but they use what he called *fluffy* balls. Again, according to the author this would still be unacceptable. BTW, DS was hit in the head during the last baseball game. It all happened very fast. One second you heard the ball hit his helmet and the next he was laying on the ground with his helmet spinning in a circle next to him. Appearently the ball hit just right along the side that it flipped his helmet off but only brushed him. I was up in the score keeper area so had a birds eye view. I immediately knew he wasn't hurt at all. In fact I nearly laughed because there he layed on his back doing one of those exaggerated blinks and shaking his head like *what happened?*. It took him a second to figure out where he was! He picked up the helmet before it even stopped spinning. I'm not so sure I want things removed just because there is a chance of getting hurt. DS wouldn't want to give up baseball, basketball, football or any other sport just because there was a chance of getting hurt or because everyone wouldn't be *equal*. I was able to go to skiing lessons with my 5th grade class. Certainly there is more danger to skiing than dodgeball! And you are still going to have a lack of equality. I was on the bunny hill the entire time. A couple of the kids had season passes and were excellent skiers. In fact one of those kids later nearly went to the olympics (suffered a knee injury that prevented him from going). How can you avoid some kids being better at gym?

[Amy2]

When I was in school, Dodgeball was played in gym class, not recess. It was required. And it wasn't like there was one ball being thrown, there were twenty! So you weren't dodging one ball, but many. It was a madhouse. And yes, it was the weaker (more scared) kids that hated it and got hurt.

I think all sports should be optional for kids. There are many activities that can be done for exercise and physical activity that are NOT sports related.

Are we getting too PC? Maybe. But I always try to remember that Political Corectness came into being for good reasons. Harassment, bullying in schools has gotten way out of hand, or so some experts are saying. I have read that ALL of the kids who participated in school shootings talked about being bullied or treated badly as part of their motivation.

At our house, and within my community of families, we try to encourage postive competetion, and inclusion of everyone. Yes, some kids are great atheletes by nature, but we can still encourage those kids who aren't. I think that altering some games to prevent an unfair advantage/disadvantage for kids is a good thing in a school setting. There are plenty of opportunites for competetive atheletics outside of school.

Amy

[Brichard]

We used to play a version of dodgeball named Speedball when I was in high school. I also remember scooter dodgeball when I was younger, we would ride on these scooters while throwing balls at each other.

I always had fun playing, but I wouldn't have a problem if it was banned either. As long as the teachers prevent the kids from being physically abusive in the game then it can be alot of fun as most games are.

Maybe gym class shouldn't be a requirement, but I'm really glad it was there for me. Sure, there were some sports that I didn't excel at and was picked towards the bottom (like basketball ;)) but more often then not I had a great time. It is good to have exercise, and like it or not competition exists in the classroom, in careers... it is just out there.

I actually remember a time where being in gym gave me the chance to get back at a bully. There was a guy who boxed and would often use the rest of the gym class as punching bags in the locker room. He didn't really hurt us, but he did pick on us... if that makes any sense. It was all punches to the arm, but never to the face or stomach or anything like that.

Although I couldn't out box him I did wrestle. The gym teacher (who knew I was a good wrestler and that this kid picked on others) intentionally had us wrestle in class. I won decisively and he admitted later to throwing up b/c he was out of shape!

He still picked on everybody, but I think he earned my respect that day and I earned a little confidence.

I've never understood bullies. It has just never been in me.

I think I'm with Ann W.'s son, let 'em play. Part of growing up is a bit traumatic, but I think it is part of paying your dues to become an adult. We just need to be there for our children and give them good advice and be good role models and hang on for the ride!

[Lynda/WA]

DS's school in CA was very very PC about gym class. No competition at all. It wound up being extremely boring. Twice a week the kids did some jumping jacks and other stretches. Then they ran laps. I'd take dodgeball any day over that and I was the shortest, fattest kid in my class! DS hated gym and he's an excelent athlete. I think when you remove everything that can upset anyone you are left with a very bland curriculm. The result (in his CA school) was a class full of kids that could care less about physical activity. There experience had been so bad at that point that they trotted around the field or didn't even bother and walked. Then they got back in the classroom and had way too much energy left! I heard of one study that showed that kids without gym and/or recess had more problems consentrating in class and were more likely to be recommened for drugs for ADHD/ADD.
I could agree with changing the format for safety reasons but again - the PC part of this situation was to avoid competition since someone will always be better than someone else.

As for the bullying - you and I (to Amy) live in a state that has enacted anti-bullying legislation. I think too much legislation is counterproductive. Look at the zero-tolerance thread. I've heard of even more examples that boggle my mind. You know those things where kids glue things in a shoe box to show a scene (diorama?)? Well, one kid (9 I think?) made one for Lewis and Clark. He glued in a miniture rifle. That got him suspended! Another 8 or 9 year old was hauled away in handcuffs for threatening a teacher with a chicken nugget (I've heard of a couple of these incidents but only one were he was hauled away in handcuffs). In the zero-tolerance thread I mentioned a girl arrested because a kitchen knife fell on the floor of her car when she was moving. I've since heard that it was a table knife and she was hauled away in handcuffs. Everyone point blank says that they know this honor student who had never been in any trouble was telling the truth when she says she didn't know that table knife was on her car floor but they don't care. BTW, she was to recieve a scholarship from the school. When the school said she may not receive it (after all having a butter knife on the floorboard of your car is a felony with a 2,500$ fine and a day in jail) the college that had accepted her said they would find a way to get her the money so she could still attend college.
I just heard of a book written by a lawyer documenting how excessive legislation has actually prevented things from getting done(author Phil Howard). For example - the privacy laws involving children in schools. One recent case involved children making threats agains other children. To protect the *privacy rights* of the child making the threats the parents of the other children in school (including those threatened) were not told of the threats. If I remember correctly this happened around Eugene. I never read of it in the papers but it was a topic on talk radio. The school refused to comment when called but numerous recidents did call in. So, the laws have taken on a life of there own and override common sense! Another example of this would be Columbine. The police knew of problems with the boys (at least the one) but because of provacy laws invovling minors they can't co-operate with the schools to tell just which kids are at risk. Oh yeah and now we can't have profiling (leads to discrimination) so you can't find which kids are at risk and get them the help they need BEFORE something like this happens! And speaking of profiling - can't label the picked on kids as at risk either. At least not officially since that could lead to discrimination.
I can just see more innocent little kids getting in trouble over nonsense with more legislation. Look at the girl trouble thread on the general chit chat board. Innocent kids stuff. I think it's really cute and shows that this kid comes from a loving affectionate family. I wonder if in our state he would have been hauled off as a sex offender! There has been at least one case where a kindergartener was suspended for kissing a girl (in another state).

[kat]

I think I'm with Ann W.'s son, let 'em play. Part of growing up is a bit traumatic, but I think it is part of paying your dues to become an adult. We just need to be there for our children and give them good advice and be good role models and hang on for the ride!

I agree. Lynda I also agree with your final remarks. Two problems with legislation is that your too broad in your spectrum ie. zero tolerance, or you try to legislate for every conceivable contingency and neither one works. We need sound laws but also need to exercise, as my dad always said, "some good old common horse sense".

I could not imagine them "hauling off" Ryleigh's ds for the kissing incident. The kitchen play area is designed so that children can "play" at being a family. How nice that dad comes home and kisses his wife. (Sounds alot like the Clever's to me.)

At my school we don't allow toy guns of any kind at school. Well, of course they are going to improvise by using their trusty fingers. I saw one little boy using his finger as a gun on the playground. Did I call the police and have him removed from the premises? NO. I went to investigate what exactly he was doing. He told me he was playing "guard drill". Now what do you say to that. We certainly need a trained National Guard. I simply told him that he might want to play that at home and go ahead and play on the equipment while he was at school. Off he skipped.

[Amy2]

Linda, I think if you or your kid wants to compete that by all means, you should be allowed to. I know MY kid would want to. I just think that kids that don't want to, shouldn't be forced to. There should be options; you can either play dodgeball, OR climb the ropes. (Or run laps, play foursquare, whatever.) Give them choices. Also, as I said before, you can alter the games in small ways to avoid certain problems. Line them against the wall and count off 1, 2, 1, 2, instead of having a "captain" for each team who chooses the strongest and most popular first. You can also have a "safe" zone where no balls are allowed. There are small, simple things you can do to alter the games without going overboard.
I also don't think we need to worry about our kids getting enough competetion. There's PLENTY of that around in every aspect of life! And again, if you want to go out for little league, or hockey or the school play or whatever, more power to ya! It's about having choices.
Amy

[Brichard]

This is slightly off-topic, but we were talking about bad teacher/class experiences among our neighbors the other night. I guess since ds is starting school the subject continues to come up.

I was in a school environment that recquired one semester of home economics, industrial arts, drafting, and art class. Everybody had to take these courses.

Now academically and in the gymnasium I have usually done very well. I was always in advanced Math and Literature classes.

But folks, I can't draw to save my life! I loathed Art class. I drew a three dimensional drawing of a house and was informed of the "bananna on my roof" b/c of the curved line I had formed!

They say handwriting/drawing is very genetic and I know my father and twin brother each have the same issues. My twin brother's Biology teacher thought he had not turned in a drawing of a Crayfish, and it turns out he thought his Crayfish drawing was a drawing of a Perch!

I had a Biology teacher look at one of my drawings and say "I think a third grader could do a better job then that." I was very sensitive about feedback from my peers and my mother ended up calling the school (not to my knowledge) and balling him out for his comments!

But in thinking about it, as sad as I was in all of those classes I'm glad I had them. I guess it again comes down to just treating people respectfully. There was no cause for the Art teacher or Biology teacher to ridicule me. And students in gym class shouldn't be ridiculed either.

[Lynda/WA]

Actually, my understanding is that they are banning it on the playground. That is were I think it should be optional. I've never heard of a school that had mandatory activities on the playground. So any child that considered dodgeball or any other game a nightmare wouldn't have to play it. Next they'll forbid the kids from racing each other on the playground because someone will be the slowest and feel inferior.

Just curious and slightly off topic - if you (Amy) don't feel they should have competition in one class (gym) how about the others? Spelling bee? Competitions to see who reads the most? My SIL (a teacher) said they don't do book orders anymore because it isn't fair to the students that don't have as much money. Should everything in school be brought down to the lowest level?

Deny those that can excel the chance so that those that may not excel feel better.

Brichard - I agree that the teachers shouldn't have ridiculed. Especially something like art that is so subjective. I think sometimes its better to compliment only or say nothing. I was lucky in art since my teacher loved everything I did. In fact he saved a half completed sandstone sculpture I left behind. Eight years later I visited when my little sister had teacher conferences and he still had it on display! I didn't fare as well at any of the industail arts but still think it was a learning experience that gave me a greater appreciation for those that work with their hands. Our teacher was very smart and offered teenage friendly projects that kids saved or gave as gifts instead of dumping them in the trash out the door.

[Amy2]

Linda, I'm not against competetion, just forced competetion. Spelling bees, all the stuff you mentioned (even dodge ball!) are great if kids are interested in them and want to pursue them.
Dodgeball seems a little different because what is the purpose of Physical Education class? To get exercise and get the kids to understand their bodies and how to keep themselves fit. Dodge ball is for fun, and it can be dangerous (i.e Mickey's getting smacked in the face.) I think it's a shame to ban it on the playground if kids WANT to play it. But I think you can circumvent highly competetive games in PE class.
Amy

[Tonyo718]

Okay people, let's be clear -

It is neither dodgeball NOR killer video games that are causing aggression in some kids. Banning neither will stop the problem (though it might stem some of the symptoms), which is kids not learning to properly direct and channel their aggresive tendencies and anger. A kid with no anger will NEVER go shoot someone because of a video game, and a child that has learned to properly control his (or her) aggressive impulses will not suddenly decide to use a playground game as an outlet. Kids who act out violently do so for one of three reasons: 1) They are being abused, 2) They have a chemical imbalance, or 3) BOTH.

Period.

Address the home life and the chemistry, and the problem is solved, and people can go on living their lives without the "ban this, ban that" mentality putting a total crimp on everything.

It's too bad the Libertarians can't secure enough power to mean anything, because the older I get, the more they make sense! People have stopped voting for people from either of the two "legitimate" parties precisely because they are control freaks. Some poor girl went to jail a few years back for eating a small bag of french fries on a subway! For heaven's sake, that might have been the only thing she had that day.

Let go of the need to control others!! It only serves to frustrate you and them both!

[AnnW]

.....................ok...............................

[Diane]

.....................ok...............................


?( ?(
Welcome to the IB... :)

[Mickey]

.....................ok...............................
:lol:

Took me a few minutes to realize this thread was over five years old!

[PamE]

:lol:

Took me a few minutes to realize this thread was over five years old!

ROFL!!! I was amazed to see a post from Lynda/WA as if she was just here yesterday! :lol:

[SpeechMom]

:lol:

Took me a few minutes to realize this thread was over five years old!

I just now realized it!! It thought it was a stupid topic, so I really wasn't paying that much attention to it - it was just in with all the other new posts.

[Diane]

I just now realized it!! It thought it was a stupid topic, so I really wasn't paying that much attention to it - it was just in with all the other new posts.


LOL... funny!

[AnnW]

I just now realized it!! It thought it was a stupid topic, so I really wasn't paying that much attention to it - it was just in with all the other new posts.


now you know why i was clueless about your other post..you skimmer you! LOL