Should teachers be able to teach without a *teaching* certification?

[Lynda/WA]

Should the K-12 teaching certification requirements be changed? If someone is an expert in a field should they be allowed to teach that topic? This has been a hot topic on Oregon talk radio recently.
As it stands Allen Greenspan (Federal Reserve) couldn't teach high school economics. Bill Nye couldn't teach science.

[TXmom]

I've discovered that knowing about a subject and teaching about a subject are two very different things. For example I was very frustrated when I attended an Algebra tutoring session that was being "taught" by another student. He obviously knew a lot about math, but didn't help bring me any closer to understanding the steps involved in solving the problems. In fact some other students seated near me said "I wonder if he realizes he's supposed to be teaching us this stuff?". I also had a horrible instructor once for a special ed class. Now that I think about it, I don't know what type of certification is needed to teach at the college level, but my experience leads me to believe that it's not teacher certification. So, my answer is yes, I think teacher certification should be a requirement at the K-12 level and it would be helpful at the college level.

[Linda/NE]

I agree Donna!

A big part of teacher certification is learning 'HOW' to teach not just the information they are supposed to teach.

I remember having instructors in class that weren't certified teachers and it was harder to learn from them.

That's not to say students can't learn from experts in a field. IMO, however, I think that should be a collaborative effort between the experts and the teachers.

[Amy2]

I have a BA and a MFA but no teaching certificate. I teach at private schools and at the Seattle Children's Theatre Drama School. I think I am much better qualified to teach my particular field of study than many teachers. BUT I happen to love teaching, and have always been good at it.
In Washington you are allowed to teach at private schools and also substitute without the certificate. I suppose it depends on the people. Hopefully a principal wouldn't hire a "bad" teacher to come in and teach their particular field, but one never knows. I guess I am saying I think it should be allowed with guidelines.
Amy

[Lynda/WA]

ref - teaching college - my understanding is that you are not required to have any kind of teaching certificate in order to teach at the college level. That brings up an irony - teachers are taught to teach by those that don't have teaching certificates.

I had a couple of terrible teachers. Teachers that completely put me off of a subject. DS had a terrible teacher last year. He wasted the entire year with a teacher that felt photocopying word finds was teaching. Not word finds dealing with what they were learning but the identical ones were for sale in the grocery store (he did these daily). These were all teachers that had been taught *how* to teach not only what to teach. Obviously the certification system failed.

Amy's post brings up another point. Generally private/charter schools don't require a teaching certificate, just a knowledge of the topic (ie degree in math) and an ability to teach. If public schools have a better system by using only those with certificates, why are private schools (in general) more effective?

One of the radio callers had taught in Isreal for many years. He said about 1/2 of those had actual teaching degrees. All of the teachers were effective. He pointed out that what you learn in class is theory. Standing before the class was the trial by fire.

I'm with Amy. I think those without teaching degrees should be allowed to teach and all teachers should be required to be effective. Principles should be allowed to deal with those that are not effective. I'm not talking about pulling people off the street but do feel someone like Amy should be eligible to teach in a public school just as she can at a private school.

A number of callers said they feel the teaching certificate requirement is a way to create a teacher shortage. There isn't a shortage of *capable* people just a shortage of *allowable* people.

Obviously there are a large number of people out there that have the ability to teach their subject. They are doing it all the time for everything but public K-12. Look at Bill Nye, he is a scientist that can obviously reach children and make it fun. In fact his programs are used by teachers to teach but if he wanted to he wouldn't be allowed to actually do it in person. Someone with a teaching degree would have to stand there in the back of the room while he did what he does all the time since he isn't *qualified*. A music teacher can teach entire classes of students elsewhere and not be allowed to teach elementrary students without a teaching certificate. A college professor can teach algebra to his students and be considered unqualified to teach algebra to high school students (except for those hs students permitted to take classes at the local college!). When I took a college computer class 2 of the students were high schoolers. They could have that teacher at the college level but he wasn't allowed to go to there hs and teach the computer classes.

Another radio call in example - a man went to school to become a teacher. He didn't get his certificate but instead became a CPA. Years later he decided he would like to teach accounting. Since so many years had elapsed since he origionally took his teachers training he was told he would need to go back for his masters in order to be allowed to teach HS accounting.

Another radio call in example - A woman (sounds like Amy!) called in with numerous education type credentials. After the host complimented her on all her degrees she said she wasn't allowed to teach in Oregon. She didn't have an Oregonian teaching certificate. Sounds like different states have different requirements?

My sister went to Carlton College (MN) origionally intending to be a teacher. She said along with your diploma you needed to receive the recommendation of a single professor in the college. That professor based her decision based on how she felt you would do as a teacher. Since she was very liberal she point blank said she wouldn't give the recommendation to a conservative that didn't share her beliefs.

TXMom - why do you feel a teaching certificate should be required for high school but only helpful when in college. Even if those college students are being taught how to teach? (No sarcasm just wondering why you feel K-12 needs it and not college)
BTW - you brought up a special ed class. today there is an article in the Seattle Times. I haven't read it yet but it sounds like a special education teacher was mentioned in the article. A full time special ed teacher couldn't be found so they used a sub teacher all year that did have a certificate. Problem is he didn't know how to teach special ed. Has the certificate but not the knowledge. Guess thats like taking a gym teacher and having them teach music even if they don't know music. they know *HOW* to teach but don't know *WHAT* to teach.

Amy - what's an MFA?

[Amy2]

Linda, MFA is a Master's of Fine Arts.
Amy

[Linda/NE]

QUOTE]Originally posted by Lynda/WA


[These were all teachers that had been taught *how* to teach not only what to teach. Obviously the certification system failed. [/QUOTE]




Unfortunately this happens in many professions. A person can be fully trained to do a job (not just teaching) but that doesn't mean they will do their job the way they should. I don't think it necessarily means the certification system failed. Very few teachers come out of college being excellent in their field. Their excellence is something they develop through out the years and with the help of mentors. I've heard of many good teachers who never acheived excellence because of poor administration in the schools.

QUOTE]Originally posted by Lynda/WA



Amy's post brings up another point. Generally private/charter schools don't require a teaching certificate, just a knowledge of the topic (ie degree in math) and an ability to teach. If public schools have a better system by using only those with certificates, why are private schools (in general) more effective?[/QUOTE]


I don't know how it is in all states but when I taught in a private school we had to have a certain percentage of teachers teaching in their endorsed field. Our 7th and 8th grade teacher, at the time, was endorsed for high school science. (In fact he has NEVER taught in his endorsed field. ) I can remember having to teach PE and music knowing absolutely nothing about them.

QUOTE]Originally posted by Lynda/WA


A number of callers said they feel the teaching certificate requirement is a way to create a teacher shortage. There isn't a shortage of *capable* people just a shortage of *allowable* people.[/QUOTE]


This brought to mind people who have posed as doctors. They have been very knowlegeable (?) and knew their stuff but didn't have the license.
What about people who drive with out a driver's license? Couples with out a marriage license?

Where would you draw the line? A license or certificate (what ever the situation calls for) is a way to verify that the person has completed the training required for the particular task.

QUOTE]Originally posted by Lynda/WA


Obviously there are a large number of people out there that have the ability to teach their subject. They are doing it all the time for everything but public K-12. Look at Bill Nye, he is a scientist that can obviously reach children and make it fun. In fact his programs are used by teachers to teach but if he wanted to he wouldn't be allowed to actually do it in person. Someone with a teaching degree would have to stand there in the back of the room while he did what he does all the time since he isn't *qualified*.[/QUOTE]

While Bill Nye may very well be able to reach many students concerning science, he may not have the classroom management skills to control the less interested ones or the ability to teach these same things to students with differing learning styles.
This is why I think a colloborative effort between experts and teachers might be a better solution.


QUOTE]Originally posted by Lynda/WA


Another radio call in example - A woman (sounds like Amy!) called in with numerous education type credentials. After the host complimented her on all her degrees she said she wasn't allowed to teach in Oregon. She didn't have an Oregonian teaching certificate. Sounds like different states have different requirements?[/QUOTE]

Teachers in NE are required to take a test before receiving a certificate. The scores of this test determine which states they are qualified to teach in. I lived in Kansas for a while and had a temporary certificate. Had I stayed, I would of had to take another test or class or something to be qualified in there.

In this age of law suits I think schools are safer going with certified personnel. That doesn't mean these people are the best choice. It seems that maybe the systems needs to be revamped where previous training, years of experience, etc. would aid in getting certified easier.
JMO