Learning a Lesson?

[Mickey]

Wondering what you think of this...

...we have friends who are big on gambling. They gamble online all the time (have for years) and they also go gambling here in town. They bet a lot with each other within the family, too.

We don't gamble at all and don't ever bet on anything. Ever. I don't like it, never have, never do it.

Well, tonight we were at their house for dinner--we're outside talking and the kids are inside playing a game on the tv--and their daughter (12 years old) bets my son (also 12) ten dollars that he can't find a fish in her fish tank. My son has been there many times before and she has a huge fish tank and always has lots of fish, so he said ok and she has him shake on it. So off he goes looking for the fish, but there is no fish. The tank is is full of water, the filter's running, and the light is on, but there are no fish. He wrongly assumed that it was a straightforward bet--that there was a hiding fish in there somewhere. And, in all honesty, he hasn't bet anything before (other than, "I bet I can jump over that curb on my bike!" kind of thing--but never for money).

The girl is adamant that he owes her $10, saying, "He shook on it!" and her parents tell her to stop it and that he doesn't owe her anything. The father says, "I always get her on bets and never make her pay!"

Dh thinks ds should pay and learn a tough lesson and I initially thought so, too, but the catch for me is that firstly, that's a lot of money to be betting at age 12 and secondly, it wasn't a straightforward bet (it kind of had a pool shark feel to it, if that makes sense--not two friends placing a friendly bet on a game for a meal, but someone tricking someone into losing money). Ds asked me why she would bet that knowing that there isn't a fish in her tank.

We had a long talk about taking bets and how people don't usually bet a lot of money unless they are pretty certain they are going to win. I explained that you need to be VERY careful about what you bet on because when you bet, you have to pay if you lose. And I told him that I don't ever want him to take a bet again. He feels foolish and promised he wouldn't ever bet again, but at the same time thinks she was creepy for tricking him.

But now I'm struggling with whether or not to make him give her $10. If the same bet (even though deceptive) was for a dollar or just for fun (no money involved), that may not be so bad, but $10 is a lot of money to him (although, that would be a lesson he'd never forget). And if it had been for a dollar, it would have obviously been just for a laugh for her, but it was about getting money for her (she had just said that she's saving up for an expensive new cell phone). Also, if the bet was straightforward--like she bet him that he couldn't do 40 push ups and he took the bet and only did 36...and again, it wasn't for more than a dollar...I may make him pay it. But then again, I would be just as unhappy with ds for betting a dollar because I really don't like betting. And our conversation about it would have been the same--no betting ever again.

So, how would you handle this? Do I make him pay her the $10?

[PamE]

I would say not. You are teaching him integrity in other areas of his life, teaching him that following through on his word is the right thing to do. In this case I'd say you taught him the lesson he needed to learn, that he needs to be careful what he bets on (whether his money or his word) and that it's best to avoid it altogether. It might be different if this weren't the first time, or if the girl's parents were on her side and felt it needed to be paid. Then it would probably be more in the interest of keeping the peace between families. I wonder if in making him pay it it would almost seem to him like a betrayal on your part, (like you weren't sticking up for him) since it was obviously not an honest wager. Those are my first thoughts on it, but I can see your dh's side, too. Is it best to make your ds honor his word, even if his friend wasn't honorable in the bet she made him? ?( I'm not helping am I? :grimace:

[AnnW]

It's the amount of money that's making you question whether or not he should pay. Like you said, if it was $1, you wouldn't think twice. The lesson is still the lesson. The girl absolutely tricked him, but he made a bet and shook on it (which is essentially giving his word). Just because people are unethical doesn't mean you don't honor your side of the deal. I think he should pay.

[MaryL]

I would say "no". Your son was tricked, and I think the girl actually should be taught the lesson. These are family friends...I would be having a talk with the girl and your ds. At the same time, your ds probably learned a valuable lesson about "shaking" on anything! If they were 16, I'd say, pay up. But they are 12, and it wasn't a fair bet.

[littlesista06]

I would say "no". Your son was tricked, and I think the girl actually should be taught the lesson. These are family friends...I would be having a talk with the girl and your ds. At the same time, your ds probably learned a valuable lesson about "shaking" on anything! If they were 16, I'd say, pay up. But they are 12, and it wasn't a fair bet.

I agree. This girl needs to learn you cannot win by trickery and that is not how you treat a friend, either.

[kat]

Dh thinks ds should pay and learn a tough lesson...

We had a long talk about taking bets and how people don't usually bet a lot of money unless they are pretty certain they are going to win. I explained that you need to be VERY careful about what you bet on because when you bet, you have to pay if you lose. And I told him that I don't ever want him to take a bet again. He feels foolish and promised he wouldn't ever bet again, but at the same time thinks she was creepy for tricking him...

So, how would you handle this? Do I make him pay her the $10?

I agree with Ann. I think if you really want the lesson you are trying to teach him to hit home hard it needs to cost him. If he is not really expected to pay it, then when a similar situation comes along later he may think back on the situation with this girl, remember what her father said about "getting her on bets and not making her pay" and I got tricked once, had a long talk with mom, and I didn't have to pay. Who's to say another bad bet won't get dismissed.

I agree the girl needs a lesson too, but that's up to her parents. I think if ds paid the bet, telling the girl and her parents why he's paying it, then maybe some parenting on her parents part might take place when ds leaves.

[Diane]

I think they both need to learn a lesson... split it by making him pay her $5.00. That way he doesn't loose the whole $10.00, but she doesn't get it all either. Kids!! ;)

[Beth/TX]

What if the bet were $50....or $100? Do you still think he should pay?

I think a lesson will definitely be learned by him w/o paying, and the girl will (hopefully) learn that dishonesty doesn't pay.

I'm curious....did he even know what he was doing by "shaking" on the bet? I'm not so sure my kids would have understood what they were doing by shaking.

I would be extremely embarrassed if I were her parents.

[vea29]

You know...I was just thinking....

In a real bet situation (poker etc.) It's about bluffing. She essentially bluffed through that bet. But also in a casino etc. If she had been caught cheeting (counting card, i.e. some unfair advantage) She would be removed from the building.

The only way I think they both really would learn a lesson is to have him Pay the $10 (to you or her parents). But have her loose (not get) the $10 for cheating.

jmo.

[Mickey]

Thank you, girls.

This is the tough part...the woman is a childhood friend and her husband works for us. The guy (the girl's father) has obviously taught her to do this by doing it to/with her over the years (that's why he said he has "gotten" her on bets and didn't make her pay).

Diane's suggestion occurred to me, but again...would he be learning a lesson about keeping his word, because he didn't bet $5. The same argument about him not learning his lesson and thinking next time he won't have to pay or won't have to pay the entire amount if it's a trick, etc.

And I agree with Mary--the age is an issue. If he were 16, it might be different. Also (and this isn't an excuse, just a fact), he's a home schooler and has never encountered a kid doing this to him before (when maybe he would have had he been in school--not an argument for or against home schooling, just a fact of life). So, that could be why she was insisting that he pay--this may have not been just about her dad teaching her how to do it, maybe she learned this with other kids, too, but she and the kids at school learned the lesson when they were younger and betting 50 cents or a dollar.

Ugh. I don't know. Still torn. If I make him pay, it has to be the entire amount. I think if I make him pay, they won't permit her to take it--if she releases him from the obligation (even if it's unwillingly), he'd be off the hook, right? I think I'll have dh offer it to her parents from him this morning (tell ds he has to work it off with us). Or I could have him just give her money as he earns it.

This sucks.

Thank you so much for your thoughts! I do appreciate and value your opinions!

[AnnW]

Have her bet him $10 that she will see the $10 she won from him! ;)

i think the bottom line is, he has to pay her. yes, what she did was wrong, but like Kat said, that's her parent's problem. Your problem is how you react to it. I would pay and then have him 'work' to pay off his debt to you. I think it would be ok to sit both kids down and say 'i think you tricked MB with your bet, and that's totally wrong, but MB did shake on it so he will do the honorable thing and pay you'
I don't think there is anything wrong with telling him he was absolutely duped and what she did was totally wrong, but it doesn't let him off the hook.

As to the amount making a difference..should it? I am torn on that. It's ok to pay back a debt if it's a dollar but not at another amount? Conversely, it's ok to cheat someone for a dollar but not other amounts. I think in this case the lesson learned is worth more than $10.

[Mickey]

Just had the same conversation with my sister, Ann! She said, "What is your job here?" That answered it for me.

She said that I'm letting other things muddle it up for me--my job is teaching my son a lesson about keeping your word no matter what and to understand that not everyone is forthright.

At one point I wondered if I would do the same thing if she bet him $100 or a thousand dollars, but the fact remains that she did not and I'm going to make him pay it.

I was going to have him give it to her mother (who will be here shortly to take my dh and her dh to the airport for a business trip), but my sister told me to have him give it to her himself and I agree with that. I told her that they won't likely see each other for a while and she said to have him mail it to her with a note saying, "I made a bet and I'm keeping my word." If she keeps it and doesn't tell her parents, that's their deal, not mine. I need to just focus on MB's side of this.

If it were the other way around, I would make him tell her that she doesn't have to pay him. And I'd be furious with him and tell him that he is NEVER to try to trick anyone like that ever and he's never to bet, etc., etc. The thing is, for them--this is more about who we are (my being childhood friends with the mom and my dh being her dh's boss). So, while they said, "No way!" last night and they may try to make their daughter give it back, in all honesty, I know that if the girl did it to a neighbor kid or a kid at school, they'd say, "Sucks being YOU!" about the whole thing and expect the other kid to pay up.

I'll have him mail the $10 to her with a note.

Thank you all so much. I really do appreciate you help!

[AnnW]

Just had the same conversation with my sister, Ann! She said, "What is your job here?" That answered it for me.

She said that I'm letting other things muddle it up for me--my job is teaching my son a lesson about keeping your word no matter what and to understand that not everyone is forthright.

At one point I wondered if I would do the same thing if she bet him $100 or a thousand dollars, but the fact remains that she did not and I'm going to make him pay it.

I was going to have him give it to her mother (who will be here shortly to take my dh and her dh to the airport for a business trip), but my sister told me to have him give it to her himself and I agree with that. I told her that they won't likely see each other for a while and she said to have him mail it to her with a note saying, "I made a bet and I'm keeping my word." If she keeps it and doesn't tell her parents, that's their deal, not mine. I need to just focus on MB's side of this.

If it were the other way around, I would make him tell her that she doesn't have to pay him. And I'd be furious with him and tell him that he is NEVER to try to trick anyone like that ever and he's never to bet, etc., etc. The thing is, for them--this is more about who we are (my being childhood friends with the mom and my dh being her dh's boss). So, while they said, "No way!" last night and they may try to make their daughter give it back, in all honesty, I know that if the girl did it to a neighbor kid or a kid at school, they'd say, "Sucks being YOU!" about the whole thing and expect the other kid to pay up.

I'll have him mail the $10 to her with a note.

Thank you all so much. I really do appreciate you help!

Your sister is so smart!! :lol:

If it were the other way around, I would make him tell her that she doesn't have to pay him. And I'd be furious with him and tell him that he is NEVER to try to trick anyone like that ever and he's never to bet, etc., etc.

absolutely tell him that!

[Mickey]

Your sister is so smart!! :lol:

If it were the other way around, I would make him tell her that she doesn't have to pay him. And I'd be furious with him and tell him that he is NEVER to try to trick anyone like that ever and he's never to bet, etc., etc.

absolutely tell him that!

Yes, she is!!! LOL!

I will definitely tell him that. That was another reason I was feeling torn--I didn't want to teach him that being deceptive pays off. I want him to know that what she did was wrong. I know he'll say, "Then why don't her parents tell her that? Why isn't she in trouble?" I know him--he's a deep thinker and when I tell him that they obviously don't believe the same, he'll ask why we have friends like that.

Ugh. Need to keep it short and sweet and keep him focused on HIS part in this--that it's not up to me to teach her right from wrong. I'll use one of our favorite lines from one of the Drake and Josh shows: "That is NOT my job!"

[Mickey]

Ugh. I'm talking to a close friend who said, "Kids shouldn't be betting--they are minors. I would NEVER make my minor child pay a bet like that. Never. If they bet at school, they'd get into trouble and no one would have to pay anyone anything. When I was in high school, kids would play a betting game with throwing quarters and if they got caught, they got suspended. It's illegal."

This really stinks.

[AnnW]

Yes, she is!!! LOL!

I will definitely tell him that. That was another reason I was feeling torn--I didn't want to teach him that being deceptive pays off. I want him to know that what she did was wrong. I know he'll say, "Then why don't her parents tell her that? Why isn't she in trouble?" I know him--he's a deep thinker and when I tell him that they obviously don't believe the same, he'll ask why we have friends like that.

Ugh. Need to keep it short and sweet and keep him focused on HIS part in this--that it's not up to me to teach her right from wrong. I'll use one of our favorite lines from one of the Drake and Josh shows: "That is NOT my job!"

you can tell him that you agree she should get in trouble because what she did was wrong, but it doesn't change anything if she doesn't. unfortunately, people don't always get caught/punished when they do wrong, but it will eventually catch up with them.

[AnnW]

Ugh. I'm talking to a close friend who said, "Kids shouldn't be betting--they are minors. I would NEVER make my minor child pay a bet like that. Never. If they bet at school, they'd get into trouble and no one would have to pay anyone anything. When I was in high school, kids would play a betting game with throwing quarters and if they got caught, they got suspended. It's illegal."

This really stinks.

she is right, they shouldn't be, but he did. if they did it at school, there would be a 'payment' of sorts..probably a lunch detention or suspended like her friends in high school.

[Mickey]

you can tell him that you agree she should get in trouble because what she did was wrong, but it doesn't change anything if she doesn't. unfortunately, people don't always get caught/punished when they do wrong, but it will eventually catch up with them.

I'm flip-flopping! This is such a struggle for me. If she had bet him $100 or $1000, there's no way I'd have him pay it. But why should that matter if it's about a lesson on keeping your word?

[vea29]

what does the Mother say?

would she take it away from the daughter? To teach her a lesson.

I think He need's to pay it....but I really think you need to make sure he understand that you don't think what either of them did was right.

[AnnW]

I'm flip-flopping! This is such a struggle for me. If she had bet him $100 or $1000, there's no way I'd have him pay it. But why should that matter if it's about a lesson on keeping your word?

if it had been a higher amount, perhaps you would handle this differently, but it wasn't. focus on what is happening now, not what it could have been. hopefully he will learn his lesson and you won't have to decide how to deal with it if it was a larger amount.

[Mickey]

what does the Mother say?

would she take it away from the daughter? To teach her a lesson.

I think He need's to pay it....but I really think you need to make sure he understand that you don't think what either of them did was right.
Like I said, Vea--while they have a "No way should he pay it!" reaction to our faces, if it were anyone else (and deep down) they actually have a "Sucks to be you!" attitude in that he's a sucker and needs to pay. I think they actually encourage this in their child--think it's fun/funny. So, no, I don't think they'd take the money from their daughter--or even tell her never to do it again.

[Mickey]

if it had been a higher amount, perhaps you would handle this differently, but it wasn't. focus on what is happening now, not what it could have been. hopefully he will learn his lesson and you won't have to decide how to deal with it if it was a larger amount.

Regardless of what IS, doesn't that still make the "lesson learning" conditional? It's not really about the lesson if I wouldn't make him pay had she bet him $500 or $1000, is it?

And the flip can be said--if it were 50 cents, it may change it, too. But it really shouldn't, should it?

[AnnW]

Regardless of what IS, doesn't that still make the "lesson learning" conditional? It's not really about the lesson if I wouldn't make him pay had she bet him $500 or $1000, is it?

And the flip can be said--if it were 50 cents, it may change it, too. But it really shouldn't, should it?

don't focus on the money. if he ask, say 'it's not about the money.' it isn't is it? it's about making a bet, gambling, keeping your word.

[Mickey]

don't focus on the money. if he ask, say 'it's not about the money.' it isn't is it? it's about making a bet, gambling, keeping your word.

It is, but that's where I'm struggling because I wouldn't make him pay on a $1000 bet. He may not know that, but I'm wondering if this is a lesson he needs to learn only because it's affordable--if it weren't affordable, it wouldn't be worth learning?

[Leigh]

My first thought was NO WAY, but after reading some of the responses, I think maybe they have a point of saying yes.

Here however is another way to look at it, let's say that he did find a fish, would you expect her to pay him?

Also, if you go into a store and get bad customer service or if a salesman tricks you into buying something that doesn't work.... what happens? I know I try to get my money back, but it doesn't always work.


I realize that really doesn't help, but maybe it gives you more to think about.

[AnnW]

It is, but that's where I'm struggling because I wouldn't make him pay on a $1000 bet. He may not know that, but I'm wondering if this is a lesson he needs to learn only because it's affordable--if it weren't affordable, it wouldn't be worth learning?

is it worth learning that you need to keep your word and you shouldn't gamble?

[AnnW]

it seems like you really don't want him to pay her. do you think if you told him how wrong it was and he shouldn't have to pay her because she tricked him, he would understand all of the various layers of this whole thing?
it's guess it's really what you think he will learn out of the whole situation if
1. you have him pay
2. you don't have him pay

what do you want him to he come away with?

[Mickey]

My first thought was NO WAY, but after reading some of the responses, I think maybe they have a point of saying yes.

Here however is another way to look at it, let's say that he did find a fish, would you expect her to pay him?

Also, if you go into a store and get bad customer service or if a salesman tricks you into buying something that doesn't work.... what happens? I know I try to get my money back, but it doesn't always work.


I realize that really doesn't help, but maybe it gives you more to think about.

That's the thing...I kept thinking that it would be different if there had been a fish in there and he simply could not find it and gave up. I'd expect him to learn a hard lesson about betting. And, again, the whole betting at 12 years old is an issue for me. And no, I would NOT allow him to take $10 from her--even if there were a fish in there and it was a legitimate bet and he won it--even if her parents INSISTED that she pay him. I'd tell them if they wanted her to learn a lesson and lose the money, to donate it to charity or something, but I wouldn't allow ds to take it because kids shouldn't be betting.

I just talked to my uncle about this (retired highway patrol) and he said, "That wasn't a bet--that was a joke!" He went on to say, "There was no way for him to find a fish because there WERE no fish. That's not a legitimate bet and there is no way I would pay on that and no way anyone should expect to be paid on that." He went on to say that the lesson is already learned--he's probably pretty embarrassed about being tricked like that and if I want to punish him for taking a bet, that's one thing, but it really wasn't a bet, in his opinion and there's no way that the girl should get money for what she did. No way. He went on to share similar stories he witnessed over the years at work Christmas parties ("bets" that were actually jokes) and reiterated that it wasn't a legitimate bet--both parties did not have the same assumptions going into it. It was a joke, not a bet."

And I think he pretty much clarified it for me. Helped me to put my finger on why it just felt so wrong--why I kept feeling like he shouldn't pay it.

I do think there's a lesson to be learned and while I think he may have already learned it, I'm thinking that I will likely make him work to earn $10 and donate it to charity, while making it clear that he's never to accept a bet again--ever.

[Amy]

I wouldn't give a dime to the brat. LOL I would shame ds into never wanting to do that again and let him learn his lesson that way. For heavens sake, they are 12 years old! I would warn him his word will mean a lot more once he gets older, so don't be foolish with it again. I put the fear of god when dd didn't turn off her flat iron one day. I didn't have to wait for her to burn down the house for her to get the full impact of what her actions *could* do. Trust me, that thing is turned off every single time now. ;)

[Beth/TX]

I've been thinking about this all day. Personally, I wouldn't make him pay. I doubt he truly knew what he was doing by "shaking" on it anyway. I asked my dd (12) if she had ever been approached with bets like this and "shaking on it". She had not.

The important lesson to learn here is that gambling is wrong. Gambling is all about learning how to gain advantage over someone else. I wouldn't want my kids thinking in this manner. Secondly, gambling is all about money, and puts people in the mindset that money is more important than anything. Again, not a concept I would want my kids thinking. People are more important.

Your ds's friend knew she had an advantage over your ds and wanted to capitalize on it. To her money was more important than your ds's feelings.

I would definitely have a talk with the parents and let them know that while you respect their decision to gamble, it is unacceptable in your family, and you don't want their daughter making bets with your son anymore.

IF you decide he should pay her the $10, I wouldn't allow him to repay it as part of the bet, since you believe gambling is wrong. I would have him go to her and tell his friend that he now realizes that gambling is wrong, and he doesn't want any part in it from now on. I would have him give her $10, and say it is just a donation towards her cell phone she is saving up for.

But again, I wouldn't make my dd pay given the same situation.

[AnnW]

I've been thinking about this all day. Personally, I wouldn't make him pay. I doubt he truly knew what he was doing by "shaking" on it anyway. I asked my dd (12) if she had ever been approached with bets like this and "shaking on it". She had not.

.

ok..playing devil's advocate here...
if he doesn't know something is wrong it's ok for him to do it or if he does, it's ok for there to be no consequences?

[Amy]

ok..playing devil's advocate here...
if he doesn't know something is wrong it's ok for him to do it or if he does, it's ok for there to be no consequences?

I believe you use the first time as an opportunity to talk about it and what the consequences would for future "bets".

[Beth/TX]

ok..playing devil's advocate here...
if he doesn't know something is wrong it's ok for him to do it or if he does, it's ok for there to be no consequences?

It all depends on the situation, people involved, ages, etc...for me anyway.

Haven't there been times in your kids lives where you gave them a "freebie" for lack of a better term? They did X wrong but didn't know it was wrong. You lectured them on why their actions were wrong, and that they were to never do it again. If they did, then there would be consquences.

I think this situation falls into the "freebie" category. I think the only consequence should be a lesson learned.

[AnnW]

It all depends on the situation, people involved, ages, etc...for me anyway.

Haven't there been times in your kids lives where you gave them a "freebie" for lack of a better term? They did X wrong but didn't know it was wrong. You lectured them on why their actions were wrong, and that they were to never do it again. If they did, then there would be consquences.

I think this situation falls into the "freebie" category. I think the only consequence should be a lesson learned.

sure, i have given freebies, but sometimes the 'hard lesson learned' and the consequence are not the same thing.
but i also know how the 'i didn't know' can backfire. is it something that they genuinely didn't know was wrong or did they just 'think' that it was ok or did they geniunely think there was nothing wrong with what they did?

[Beth/TX]

sure, i have given freebies, but sometimes the 'hard lesson learned' and the consequence are not the same thing.
but i also know how the 'i didn't know' can backfire. is it something that they genuinely didn't know was wrong or did they just 'think' that it was ok or did they geniunely think there was nothing wrong with what they did?

Yes, it can get hairy at times with the "I didn't know". I've seen my nieces and nephews use that excuse many times and get away with it. Generally speaking, I can tell if my kids are using this as an excuse or not.

[DMS]

I wouldn't make him pay it.

[AnnW]

Yes, it can get hairy at times with the "I didn't know". I've seen my nieces and nephews use that excuse many times and get away with it. Generally speaking, I can tell if my kids are using this as an excuse or not.

it was easier when mine were younger to tell...now it's harder and grayer. and the ramifications are far scarier!

[MaryL]

I keep thinking, though, there were NO fish in the stupid fishtank. Mickey's ds didn't know that when he "shook hands", and he had been there before and had seen fish in the tank. To me, that's just wrong of the "friend", and if her parents condone it....it would be time to find new friends. It's like saying, "I'll bet you $10 that your baseball team won't score 5 runs at tonight's game". If the game is cancelled, is there a winner to the "bet"? The fish bet was not valid....there were NO fish! ?(

[PamE]

I believe you use the first time as an opportunity to talk about it and what the consequences would for future "bets".

That's my thinking, too. IF there had been a hint of an issue around gambling before now then yeah, he'd pay up regardless. If he was older, if it had been a legitimate bet, he'd pay up. Ita that the embarrassment of the whole situation would be a pretty good teacher.

[vea29]

I keep thinking, though, there were NO fish in the stupid fishtank. Mickey's ds didn't know that when he "shook hands", and he had been there before and had seen fish in the tank. To me, that's just wrong of the "friend", and if her parents condone it....it would be time to find new friends. It's like saying, "I'll bet you $10 that your baseball team won't score 5 runs at tonight's game". If the game is cancelled, is there a winner to the "bet"? The fish bet was not valid....there were NO fish! ?(

I agree and I also think he totally understands now that betting was wrong....Ok I think I just contradicted myself from earlier. LOL

[littlesista06]

It all depends on the situation, people involved, ages, etc...for me anyway.

Haven't there been times in your kids lives where you gave them a "freebie" for lack of a better term? They did X wrong but didn't know it was wrong. You lectured them on why their actions were wrong, and that they were to never do it again. If they did, then there would be consquences.

I think this situation falls into the "freebie" category. I think the only consequence should be a lesson learned.

I agree. If MB had been the one cheating, then he'd be in line for a lesson. He was duped and made a sucker of, and that is no way for her to have treated him.

You are in a situation, Mickey, to teach him one lesson on betting and another on how to treat others. He does not deserve to pay her a stinking dime.

I told dh about this and he said absolutey not, he does not owe that cheater the money. LOL Furthermore he added, if she were in a casino and cheated she'd be kicked out and have to give the money back. So... in his line of thinking, she owes MB the money! :)

[Mickey]

I keep thinking, though, there were NO fish in the stupid fishtank. Mickey's ds didn't know that when he "shook hands", and he had been there before and had seen fish in the tank. To me, that's just wrong of the "friend", and if her parents condone it....it would be time to find new friends. It's like saying, "I'll bet you $10 that your baseball team won't score 5 runs at tonight's game". If the game is cancelled, is there a winner to the "bet"? The fish bet was not valid....there were NO fish! ?(

Yes! That's it! And to make the baseball bet comparison even more accurate, the person initiating the baseball bet would actually have the knowledge that the game was going to be cancelled when the other person did not.

Thank you, Mary!

[Mickey]

ok..playing devil's advocate here...
if he doesn't know something is wrong it's ok for him to do it or if he does, it's ok for there to be no consequences?

I agree with Beth on this. Even if it had been a legitimate bet that he lost fair and square, I'd still struggle with it because he is naive where this kind of thing is concerned because he's not familiar with betting at all and I do know that. He is only 12 and has never had any experience/history/issues with betting/gambling before. He's never had a friend (or anyone, for that matter) bet him anything for money.

[Mickey]

I agree. If MB had been the one cheating, then he'd be in line for a lesson. He was duped and made a sucker of, and that is no way for her to have treated him.

You are in a situation, Mickey, to teach him one lesson on betting and another on how to treat others. He does not deserve to pay her a stinking dime.

I told dh about this and he said absolutey not, he does not owe that cheater the money. LOL Furthermore he added, if she were in a casino and cheated she'd be kicked out and have to give the money back. So... in his line of thinking, she owes MB the money! :)

LOL! Well, I'm thinking that won't go over well if I call and ask when she'll be getting the $10 to him, but I definitely see the point! And yes, a casino wouldn't tolerate it and they wouldn't DO it to people (taking bets with inside knowledge of something is illegal).

But...again--we're talking about KIDS, so I'll let her slide and not press charges for fraud and racketeering! ;)

[Diane]

Joke or bet... she tricked him, and IMHO she doesn't deserve a penny, and there is no way I'd allow my ds to pay/reward her for her dishonesty. I think/hope this has been a good enough lesson to him, and hopefully to her too. I hope this doesn't put a strain on your friendship.

[Mickey]

...To me, that's just wrong of the "friend", and if her parents condone it....it would be time to find new friends...(


...I think/hope this has been a good enough lesson to him, and hopefully to her too. I hope this doesn't put a strain on your friendship.

This is another struggle separate from this incident. We seriously have little to nothing in common with them on a personal level. Like I said, my family and her family know each other and we went to Jr. High and High School together. We went our separate ways after graduation and when we got back in touch, we were married moms. That's when it became very clear how VERY, VERY different we are in many ways. But, it wasn't a big deal--I'd meet her for dinner or lunch twice a year when I went back to PA, and that was it. But, two years ago, we went back to PA for a visit and dh and I meet up with her and her dh for dinner and to catch up. Her dh asks my dh a lot about our business and they are very engrossed in conversation the entire evening. The next day he called my dh and asked him if he would consider interviewing him for a job. My dh agrees. Long story short, he took a job with us and they moved across the country to where we live. Dh gets along with him (they mostly talk work and have a few laughs when we get together), but I have struggled with comments she has made to me (telling me, "get that kid off your tit--she's too old for that!" was the most recent one last week).

I feel kind of trapped--like I can't speak my mind because I need to keep the peace--but then I get annoyed and think, "Why is up to ME to keep the peace?" Why can't I just shove my views on things on her and criticize her to her face for her choices? Uh, because it would cause a war and make life awkward for our husbands. But it's ok for her to do it.

But, I think I just need to steer as clear as possible from now on. This really left a bad taste in my mouth--realizing that they are likely saying, "Good one!" to their daughter over something I would severely punish MB for doing. The differences are just too great and it's much more difficult when it's in my child's face and I feel I have to explain why I am, in effect, condoning things I tell him are wrong. I justified maintaining the relationship in the past by saying, "Sometimes people can have a good heart and you have a childhood connection with them, like a family member, but you don't have the same belief system and views on important things--but you can still be friends." But I think he's learning, "It's ok to hang out with people who believe and do things we are totally against."

Ann...I think you started all this heavy thinking, didn't you? ;) Aren't we full-circle now with having to be nice and accept people when you don't want to? :lol:

[AnnW]

Ann...I think you started all this heavy thinking, didn't you? ;) Aren't we full-circle now with having to be nice and accept people when you don't want to? :lol:

LOL!

last time i checked though, employees are supposed to be the ones sucking up to the boss and his wife. i don't think i would worry so much about your role in keeping the peace. it's not like your dh is going to fire the husband because you don't put up with her rude comments.

i once read somewhere that when people say rude comments you ask them (all very calmly with a smile on your face)
what did you say?
then they repeat the rude comment and you simply say
that's what i thought you said....interesting you feel you can say that.

[littlesista06]

i once read somewhere that when people say rude comments you ask them (all very calmly with a smile on your face)
what did you say?
then they repeat the rude comment and you simply say
that's what i thought you said....interesting you feel you can say that.

Ooooooh! I LOVE THAT!!

[Diane]

Ooooooh! I LOVE THAT!!

Love that too... just PERFECT!!!! :thumb:

[Melody]

While I was reading all the comments, I was swayed each way. lol But, I'm going with my first thought, don't make him pay. She knew there weren't any fish in the tank and cheated on the bet. If you feel it's really important to make him pay it up, donate the 10$ to charity in her name and tell her why it was done that way and how you feel that she should not gain the 10$ for a new phone by cheating. I wouldn't put it in the mail either but face to face so the parents can hear it. It may even make the mother and father think for a minute what they are teaching their child.

[Melody]

LOL!

last time i checked though, employees are supposed to be the ones sucking up to the boss and his wife. i don't think i would worry so much about your role in keeping the peace. it's not like your dh is going to fire the husband because you don't put up with her rude comments.

i once read somewhere that when people say rude comments you ask them (all very calmly with a smile on your face)
what did you say?
then they repeat the rude comment and you simply say
that's what i thought you said....interesting you feel you can say that.

I was thinking the same thing, he works for your dh and you are worried about keeping peace? Sounds like a rude bunch but I wouldn't keep quiet about it.

Love the comeback!!

[Mickey]

LOL!

last time i checked though, employees are supposed to be the ones sucking up to the boss and his wife. i don't think i would worry so much about your role in keeping the peace. it's not like your dh is going to fire the husband because you don't put up with her rude comments.

i once read somewhere that when people say rude comments you ask them (all very calmly with a smile on your face)
what did you say?
then they repeat the rude comment and you simply say
that's what i thought you said....interesting you feel you can say that.

I'm going to print that and put it on my fridge!!!

I don't know what it is--it just seems like it would be more miserable for me in the long run to speak my mind. Her sister (and best friend) did that right before she left PA and they didn't speak for over a year. (Not that that would be a bad thing for me! ;) LOL!) I just don't like negativity and fighting, but I love your comeback--I can do that!!!

[kat]

LOL!

last time i checked though, employees are supposed to be the ones sucking up to the boss and his wife. i don't think i would worry so much about your role in keeping the peace. it's not like your dh is going to fire the husband because you don't put up with her rude comments.

Yea, what she said.


While I was reading all the comments, I was swayed each way. lol But, I'm going with my first thought, don't make him pay. She knew there weren't any fish in the tank and cheated on the bet. If you feel it's really important to make him pay it up, donate the 10$ to charity in her name and tell her why it was done that way and how you feel that she should not gain the 10$ for a new phone by cheating. I wouldn't put it in the mail either but face to face so the parents can hear it. It may even make the mother and father think for a minute what they are teaching their child.

That makes good sense too. She did cheat and should learn that you can't get ahead by cheating - so she doesn't get the money, but you want MB to learn a lesson about honoring his word when he "shook on it" and accepted the bet, and making a more informed decision before giving his word. Have him donate the money to a charity in her name like Mel suggested, let her and her parents know your intentions and your reasons behind it.

((((((((hugs)))))))) Let us know what finally transpires.

[AnnW]

and they didn't speak for over a year. (Not that that would be a bad thing for me! ;) LOL!) I just don't like negativity and fighting, but I love your comeback--I can do that!!!

There's no down side! LOL

remember, always say it with a smile.

[AnnW]

but you want MB to learn a lesson about honoring his word when he "shook on it" and accepted the bet, and making a more informed decision before giving his word. Have him donate the money to a charity in her name like Mel suggested, let her and her parents know your intentions and your reasons behind it.

((((((((hugs)))))))) Let us know what finally transpires.

that's along the same lines that i have been thinking. especially the making informed decisions. you keep talking about how naive he is, then in my mind, it's even more important that he understand that concept. i am always talking to my kids about this and even more so the older they get.