10 kids

[arianna]

MM! Last evening, I caught up with the woman who runs a homeschool group on this island. We were catching up for the time I was in the states. She told me another woman in our group is now pregnant with her 10th child. I almost hit the floor. She had 7 when I left , then she had twins.
They make enough money to raise these children here well. Her husband is American and she is a native to the island. He commutes to the US every Sunday night and returns Friday to spend the week end with his family. She travels to the states a month before her children are born and has a midwife attend her, not a medical doctor. Oh and this is the coolest part. As a family hobby, they breed some kids of show goat. They milk them daily and convert the milk to dairy for their home.
Is this too many children ? They want to have 12. ßß!

[KarlaB]

It used to be that families this size were common. My mom grew up with 13 siblings! 8o It sounds like the family you mentioned is happy with their size and can handle it. As much as I love kids, I don't think I could do it! Does she have any help? How far apart are the kids? I think I'd go crazy if I had ten kids and my dh was gone all week. :crazyroll LOL!

[TXmom]

I think that's a question only they can answer. Sounds like they're handling it pretty well.

[Mickey]

I agree with Karla and Donna--sounds like they're handling it well. And it was very common years ago--my great grandmother had 11 kids (including two sets of twins two years apart!) and she had the older kids to help her with a lot. My grandma, being the oldest, had a lot of responsibilities at home.

[Lynda/WA]

Dad came from a family with 18 kids. Grandpa was married twice. Seven kids with the first wife and 11 kids with the second. My Grandma helped raise nearly all 18 (first as nanny then as wife/mom).

I think a family should be able to have as many children as they can financially, emotionally, and otherwise support. Look at how wrong things can go though.
Take that Mom in Idaho (or was it Utah?). They had no problems for years. It sound like they were able to do many things (like your friends goats) on their land that was valued at over 200,000$. That would probably be quit a chunk of land in that area! Then Dad gets sick for a couple of years. No more income coming in from his job. They get behind on property taxes by $8,000. He dies about the same time the government (county?) confiscates the land and sells it for 52,000$. Government keeps all the money (law in that area). The families good life is completely history. Mom gets arrested to child abuse (don't know if that stuck) and the kids all go to foster care.
So, I think before having any kids you should consider not only if you can meet their current needs but also their future needs even if family fortunes take a downturn. One friend in CA couldn't afford the two kids they had yet they went ahead and actually planned their third child. That I think is irresponsible.
BTW - I could never deal with 10 children of my own!

[Amy2]

I think that people should be able to do what they want, but I also think it would be more socially responsible to have fewer children. I wouldn't want to live in China where you were allowed to have only one, but I worry that if we're not careful, one day we too will have to enforce some kind of limits on family size because we didn't figure it out soon enough and do it on our own!

Amy

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Amy
I think that people should be able to do what they want, but I also think it would be more socially responsible to have fewer children. I wouldn't want to live in China where you were allowed to have only one, but I worry that if we're not careful, one day we too will have to enforce some kind of limits on family size because we didn't figure it out soon enough and do it on our own!

Amy

what's the magic number?

[Amy2]

Jeff, if I was going to talk specifically about zero population growth, I guess the "magic number" would be two. Each adult reproducing themselves. But people who want more than two kids will cite all kinds of reasons to have more. Take us for example; my sister doesn't have kids, nor does my husband's sister, do we get four extra? As I said, I wouldn't want laws that gave a "magic number" but I do think that it wouldn't hurt if people gave some thought to our planet's limited resources when procreating.

Amy

[Jeff]

I have to wonder if zero or even negative population growth would solve the problem of limited resources. I don't know about other countries, but the US is extremely consumption oriented. I don't know what percentage of the world resources we do consume but I know its extremely skewed.

I can think of many ways that I contribute to this issue. Here are just a few. Eat for reasons other than hunger, support restaurants that encourage such practices, store baby clothes that others could be using so I can save a buck the next time around, run the AC all the time in the summer instead of just hanging in the basement where its already cool, use the computer for non-critical purposes (other than coming to the ideabox and posting messages, I can't think why most people really even need computers), drive vehicles that get poor to ok gas mileage, and have two vehicles for mere convenience sake. There are a multitude of other ways I can think of that I consume things just because they are currently available and probably just as many ways I am negligent without knowing it.

The baby is asleep again so I am off to conserve energy for a few precious minutes.

[Lynda/WA]

Jeff & Amy
Italy was having problems with families having two few people. The result was that the population was aging and there were concerns about the newer generations being overburdened. Last I heard (and I can't verify a number) the average family in the us was having less than 2 kids. Like Amy I'd consider 2 the magic number. Problem in the US is what do you consider a family? When they say the average family are they meaning 2 parent families or single parent families? I don't know how that 1.? kids equates to replacing ourselves.

BTW - DH and I each com from families with 3 kids. My B & S don't have any. At least my B probably won't ever. On DHs side his B has 2. His S has 0 and never will. I'd hate to pick up the slack! To be honest I don't think we could afford 7 kids. Speaking of which - why does it seem that richer people have less kids and poorer people have more? Isn't that a little backwards?

[netmechwife]

I recently read that now China is paying college students to care for the elderly bc there are not enough people to do it... Limiting families has its problems too....

[Amy2]

Interesting points. This will sound awfully morbid, but wouldn't the elderly generation die off in a decade or so, balancing out the numbers? I don't know.

Jeff~absolutely there are so many things we could do to conserve. If I have my kids and they're tired, I will drive to the store rather than walk with them. BIG waste. We try to conserve electricty and water and stuff, but there are times when I just want to lay in a hot bath just because! And on and on...

Amy

[Linda/NE]

I agree with those who said it's up to the individuals to decide. It sounds like the lady Arianna posted about has things under control.

I came from a family of 6 kids so my 5 really doesn't seem that big of a family. In fact I often look around and have a feeling that someone is missing(and everyone is accounted for!)

The trouble with government setting limits is that it would be impossible to find a limit everyone would agree too. Not to mention the religious toes that would be stepped on.

My personal belief is that God has a reason for sending a child when he does. Even the most responsible people end up with unplanned babies (I like to call them bonus babies! :)) Take us for example--we planned our first two as close together as they are (20 months). Then we waited almost 4 years to have the next one. We planned on having number 4 but just not as soon as we did (14 mos later than #3) and then 14 mos later we had number 5. Sure you're probably thinking "you just weren't careful, etc." The thing that really tells me this was God's plan is that we used the same method of birth control each time. If it worked for most of 4 years why would it suddenly not work? Even sterilization isn't 100% effective. Abstinence is the only way to be completely sure one doesn't get pregnant.

I do have a problem with people like my dh's step sister who (probably) purposely got pregnant time and again to trap the guy. (I'm still not sure how to justify my feelings about her and still maintain my general belief.)

There could be just as much an argument over why some people only have 1 or 2 kids.

IMHO, it should just be left to the individuals and let God handle it.
:)

[arianna]

MM! I waited for others to post their opinions first, so that the writing was pretty much unbiased.

They have indeed left the growth of their family to God. The husband is the minister of their church as well. A very small (10-15) church group in the next town. No crazy religious beliefs either, just the basic christian beliefs.

The children are wonderfully behaved ( put mine to shame) children,well mannered and loving children. The mother is the most absolutely organized woman I have ever met. I don't see these children felling that they are not loved. This is believe is an amazing family.

ßß!

[AnnW]

Originally posted by arianna
MM! The husband is the minister of their church as well. A very small (10-15) church group in the next town.
ßß!

A 10-15 member church...after his family, they have 3 member???? :newwink:

[sugarfrankie]

I am afraid that my husband and I will be in that same boat down the way. We have 3 children right now. My mom came from a family of 10 and my dad a family of 5. I know that it is uncommon now to see such large families, but what has changed?

I a Souther Baptist, born and raised, and it is not a religious belief. I just cannot get myself to make a permanent decision about birth control. Right now, I take none! (my doctors cringe when they see me coming)

I just keep thinking that "If I make that permanent FINAL decision, I will not be doing what God planned for me. What if I was supposed to have our future president?"

Give me your feedback, I will not take offense!

[Lynda/WA]

sugarfrankie
Even sterilization isn't 100%. If God really wanted you to have the future president there's wiggle room of about 1%. ;-) I got pregnant using birth control twice. With the first, I was on the pill and he was born on Christmas Day. I think he was meant to be regarless of what I planned.

Seriously though, if you have doubts don't make it as final as sterilization. That's one step you need to feel comfortable with.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by sugarfrankie


I just keep thinking that "If I make that permanent FINAL decision, I will not be doing what God planned for me. What if I was supposed to have our future president?"

Give me your feedback, I will not take offense!

We have three and can't imagine a tubal or a vasectomy...

[Amy2]

My husband had a vasectomy. I admit, that sometimes that saddens me that this is it. But we both agree that this is the best decision for our family, so...

I also think that God gave us brains and science and all those things, and doesn't expect us to walk around waiting for him to make our decisions for us, but to use our minds, be practical and realistic about our lives and make decisions accordingly.

Amy

[JeannieOR]

People raised in small, closed families (including me) have an unrealistic sence of entitlement. At least that's my theory.

I know there is the stereo-type of the welfare mother who has 10 kids to get a bigger check, but personally I've never met a family like that. Our PTA president has 6 kids and lives in a 2 bedroom house. She and her dh work at differant shifts to save up money for a bigger house. You might think her home was a disaster but its not. There is a place for everything and everything in its place. Even her toddler picks up her own toys. I babysat her kids on a couple occasions and found them to be polite and well adjusted. It was like they had a real sence of their place in the world. They seemed to have the ability to deal with others at a level well beyond their years. I have seen this with other large families as well. I don't think super-parenting accounts for all of it either. I Think it is the atomospere that a large family provides.

Now I do believe in zero growth because I don't think that God's going to swoop down and save our species after we mess up his planet. (Don't mean to offend but it's just not my belief system.) Ultimately, either we curb our population or nature will do it for us. Although, it is true that curbing human growth will also have unpleasant consequences. It doesn't seem natural and most national economies are based on growth.

Personally, I got my tubes tied right after my second child. And while I can see why others might like a big family, I could not imagine having more children. (Maybe it's that over-developed sence of entitlement.)

[RCT]

not for me thank you, but if they have enough love and finacial stability to do so more power to them.....and again I am glad its not me.....LOL

[Mickey]

This is tough because years ago (I think it was on DONAHUE! LOL!) I saw a mother who was pregnant with her 14th child and there were 6 or 7 fathers involved. The government had convinced a couple who owned a 5 bedroom house to rent to this mother and her kids and they destroyed the house--wallpaper ripped off the walls, holes in walls, ****roaches, etc. The audience was OUTRAGED! Told her to stop having kids and she claimed it was her "right" to have kids. She received child support from some of the fathers as well as government help.

That's a problem--you should be able to take care of your children if you want to have them, but SO many people can't and don't. There's abuse, neglect, poverty, etc. So, we can give our moral personal opinion, but I don't see us ever being able to limit the number of children people have.

I don't know the answer to the world population problem, but when you put a limit on the number of kids people can legally have, that creates another problem. Several years ago, I saw a show on PBS about India and how the parents of girls there have to pay a dowry to the family of the girl's husband. So, when they are limited in the number of children they have, they all want boys and they were aborting girls at a frightening rate. There were ultra-sound shops on every street corner and they projected that in so many years the male population will be 4 or 5 times that of the female. I've known several couples in this country who keep trying for that boy so I would fear that a similar thing would occur here.

I also agree with Jeff regarding the fact that the US is very consumption oriented. And I know many childless couples who use more natural resources than couples with 3 or more children who conserve and recycle.

Like I said, I don't know the answer, but I see many problems with proposed solutions.

[Amy2]

Mickey, I don't think we would ever have the infanticide here because we don't have a culture in which the boys are the only ones who can go out and earn a living, or take care of families. Those countries don't like girls because girls aren't allowed to "amount to anything" whereas here, we (hopefully) are becoming more egalitarian.

That said, I think it would be wrong to try to regulate the number of children a person has. Keep your laws off my body!

Amy

[darlene]

Originally posted by RCT
not for me thank you, but if they have enough love and finacial stability to do so more power to them.....and again I am glad its not me.....LOL

I totally agree Renee! We were a family with 5 children growing up. Our family with 3 kids seems just right for our lives....both emotionally and finacially.

Here is a cute story I came across.....

http://www.parentinghumor.com/slice/allmine.html

:)

[Linda/NE]

Darlene,
LOVED IT!! I can so relate to that!! I get so many of those same questions and even a few of the ones that the lady mentioned people were probably thinking and didn't voice it aloud. (Have you ever heard of the pill? Don't you know what causes that? We know what your extra curricular activity is?)

"You have your hands full" and "I can barely handle my own" are common comments I hear. One thing that some of these people don't think about is that we had our children one at a time not all 5 at once! It seems overwhelming to go from their one or two and suddenly have 5. I'd be overwhelmed taking on 5 extra kids all at once too. We got used to one at a time. It was an adjustment to make each time we had a baby. You get into a routine/schedule and take it day to day.

Thanks so much for sharing!!! :)

[Lynda/WA]

Amy - I think you're right about how in the US parents would probably choose an equal number of boys and girls. We've had readily available abortions here long enough and ultra sounds are easy enough to get that we would have noticed a change in population balance.
Also, there is a company that *spin cycles* the sperm and lets you choose which sex. It's not 100% but close enough. You have a greater chance of success if you choose a girl. I guess the weight of the sperm is enough that one sex rises to the top when spun. Sort of like they do to blood. Whats that called a centrafugal? Anyways they just use from the top or the bottom depending. (I honestly think girls went to the top!) They've had a fairly equal number of requests. Usually it's parents that have 1 or more of a single sex and want the other sex.

[Amy2]

Lynda~ I read about that sex choice thing too. I actually looked into it, but decided against it. (My dh said, "what, they put us on a spinner while we're....") I actually read a thing that MORE people chose girls! Perhaps it is because if you are trying to conceive a certain gender, it is usually easier to get a male. Also, they said that over all women were the ones who wanted girls. A mother daughter thing, you think?

Amy

[Lynda/WA]

Amy~ That is toooo funny. I'm sitting here imagining an entire couple spinning around... Well, you know what I'm thinking! And the kids are asking me what I'm laughing about! Just how am I supposed to explain that!?!

I can see what you mean about the mother daughter thing. I thought girls would be easier. I was one myself after all. My son is sooo much easier than DD is!

[Amy2]

Lynda~I think I am getting the picture about the boys being easier thing. My dd will throw herself to the floor over the most trivial thing. I just look at her. Okay.....I can see what's ahead for the teenaged years. DS never did that!

But, I think my mom is about my most favorite person in the world other than my dh and kids. And truthfully, if my MIL wants to know about what's going on in our family, she talks to ME and not her son.

Little girls are challenging, but they grow up to be women, and I just LOVE women! I would be lost without the women in my life, they are my anchors.

That said, my ds and I are extremely close. He is at that stage where he is wooing me. He said yesterday "I want you to stay like that forever mom, because you look really cute!" He loves his mama!

Amy