What is "Religion?"

[Amy2]

I got to thinking about this while posting/reading the thread about children and religion. I consider myself a very spiritual person, and believe in God, though not God in the way most organized religions view God. I have found that because my relatioinship with God is not in the form of any set religion (Catholic, Jewish, Mormon, Buddhist) that I am often regarded as non religious. I think many people whom I would consider very spiritual people have felt this way as well.
So what do y'all think? What makes a person a spiritual/religious person? Why is religion/spirituality locked into certain standards? Why is there so much fighting in the name of God and religion? A very big set of questions to be sure. Putting it out there! Amy

[Brichard]

I can appreciate how you feel to a degree because at one time I was very much an agnostic. And one thing I found out is that if you are agnostic (believing there is a God, but just don't know which one) that many Christians will not like you. Now I'm not like that and many of my fellow Christian friends may not be like that... but I can tell you from experience... there are many who are.

I now am a Christian, so I would implore you to investigate it further, and I highly recommend "More Then a Carpenter" by Josh McDowell. He was a phillosopher who set out to disprove Christianity and in turn became a Christian after seeing all the evidence. It is a short cheap book, but it is full of great information.

The phillosophical question I would have for you is "How does one have a spiritual belief without a religion?" I've heard of many people who believe a certain way and their answer is "its just how I feel." If you can't define God in certain terms or base it on certain foundations, I'm not sure what you are relying on for Faith.

Don't stop searching for God. The answers are there... just keep digging! "Ask and you shall receive!" Good Luck!

[Amy2]

See, this is what I mean. Brichard's implication that I haven't found God makes me so curious. I HAVE found God. It's just the God I know is not named in the same way a Christian, Jew, Buddhist, or whatever would name theirs. But my "knowing" and "faith" is the same.

If you've ever read The Next Place (a children's book) it gives a beautiful description of what many people would call "Heaven." I have a Mormon friend who really believes that when you die, you go up and sit on the clouds and play a harp or whatever and look just like you look right now and so do all the people you knew. I see it so differently. I believe that our spirits go on and on, after our bodies die, that we become one with Creation, or whatever, but she sees it more in black and white. It's just totally different from what I think/feel. Is she "wrong?" I don't think so. Am I? Don't think so either. How can we get inside another person's head or heart and think that what we believe is more true? Especially if they also pray, ponder, search, seek, love, believe?

I don't mean to sound defensive at all, but just to respond to Brichard's comment about searching further, I have searched, and this is what I've found and it feels true and right to me. I guess guess maybe I have answered my own question, as to why there are so many wars in the name of religion. Some people refuse to accept other people's truth as valid, and nobody likes to have their views disregarded or disrespected.

[Brichard]

Well, I will politely agree to disagree. When I was agnostic I couldn't see why everybody couldn't "just get along" in the name of faith. And to a degree I still believe that is true... this is a free country and everybody can choose to worship or not worship however you want to.

I've studied alot of the world religions, and from the interpretations of Buddhism... you can pretty much believe whatever you want. There are some Buddhist's for example that believe you can be a Christian and a Buddhist. From my studies of the Bible... I don't think a reasonable person can make that interpretation.

The problem with me talking to another person with a different faith is this ... based on my interpretation of the Bible and belief... there is only one way to get to everlasting life... and that is through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I'm not into denominations which is why I choose to go to a Christian church. But, since I believe that there is only one way to heaven, I would be a much more insincere and cruel person by saying "I'm glad you've found your God." I don't like conflict, so that is my natural reaction... but it wouldn't be true. You see, I want everybody to go to heaven including you.

Now, I'm not God and I won't pretend to know the extent of God's grace. So when I say "I hope you find God" that is sincerely what I mean. Now if you believe in the trinity, and the Bible then I think you will be fine. But I won't tell you I agree with Buddhism, Mormonism... or any other faith. I'd be hypocritical if I did.

Now, do I think any less of people if they have a different faith? No, absolutely not. Do I want them to convert to Christianity? Absolutely, because there is only one God and it is the one discussed in the Bible.

The nature of religion is so important. If you believe a person has to do "x" to get to heaven and they believe "y", then you will have conflict. And since we are talking everlasting life... people are pretty passionate about it.

But as much as I would like to say that "I believe Mormons are going to heaven," I really don't based on their philosophy. Their whole premise of faith is to become a God through acts of service, and the Bible tells us that only through a relationship with Christ will we get to heaven. We can't earn a ticket to heaven through good works alone.

[MK]

You know, if people continue to be logical and keep their emotions in check, as we are so far, this will turn out to be a really fun thread! I'll give you a little history on my background. I was raised LDS (Mormon). And yes, like Brichard mentioned, I was taught (lectured is more like it)that you must do and believe 100% all the doctrine to get to Heaven. And not just Heaven as most people (of any religion, Christian or otherwise)percieve it, but a degree of Heaven that only Mormons believe exists, one that only Mormons can get to.
To keep a long story short, I left the church of my upbringing just two months before my first child was born. I'll get into the details some other time, if anyone really wants to know. (BTW, I was 24 when I left, and had very strong convictions prior-- even went to the temple)
Anyway, my dh and I have since joined a new "church family". It is a Baptist church according to name, but the basic overall beliefs and practices of this church most closely fit the personal beliefs of dh and myself, and offers our family a network of support and people who care about us and pray for us. We are very spriritual people (I tend to go more on faith than dh, though), we continue to marvel at God's grace and how He continues to watch over us and care for us, pull us out of trials and tribulations at every turn, even during the times when we didn't feel particularly "close" to Him. I may not always be a very good example of the ideal Christian, but that is no indicator of the degree of my faith.

You'll find as you go through life and attend workshops, seminars, read self-improvement books, etc., the authors/lecturers almost always mention nurturing one's spiritual self in addition to the mental and physical. This nurturing can include any activities from prayer, church attendance, meditation, to personal rituals designed to strengthen one's personal perspective-- reading poetry, taking a walk in the woods, writing in a journal, etc.

Personally? I believe all people except those who are truly evil (murderers who have no remorse for thier actions) will go to Heaven, even Mormons, but I don't think it will be the kind of Heaven the Mormons expect and talk about. I think the Mormons will be really surprised when they get there, lol.

A long time ago I once dropped an anonymous question in the theology question box to be answered by the pastor in one of our newsletters. The question was: Mormons preach the idea of a "Forever Family". This means they believe that parents and children who go to the LDS temple and are sealed together (and of course only members of the Mormon church can do this)AND live ALL the teachings and doctrines of the church will be together as a nuclear/extended family in what they call the "Celestial Kingdom". Is there such a thing as a "forever family"? And what about people who are not Mormons? Well, my pastor had a very comforting answer to this. It was his opinion that yes, all families are "forever", but not in the way the Mormons think. Basically when we all get to Heaven, we will all be one big, happy family, since, afterall, we are all children of God, and that makes us all spirit brothers and sisters.

There is another book, "An Angel in the Making" by Frances Gomez. The author describes her experience with helping her daughter overcome some spriritual "issues" prior to her death from cancer. The author also honors a promise to her daughter by describing her own near-death experience in this book, and describes some of the things she learned while she was in the other dimension known as the "spirit world". Some of the things she talked about were very surprising to me, and some things were things I wondered about and thought, but didn't have any answers for until I read the book. One of the things the author did say she learned in her near-death experience was that we all knew each other in the spririt world before coming to earth, that we chose our families and close friends, we built our "support networks", we promised to find and help each other once we got to earth. I firmly believe that the people we come in contact with and help/influence/touch lives with are for a reason. I also believe that there is a positive lesson to be learned from every negative thing that happens. You just have to figure out what it is. That belief has been, at times the only "faith" I've had to get me through my own trials.

Well, I'm sorry this was so long. Sometimes my own spriritual feelings are so strong that I just have to share, especially if I hear someone reaching out for some spiritual support. I hope what I had to say offers you some comfort, Amy. You are not alone.

[Amy2]

MK~thank you for your thoughtful response. I was speaking with a friend of mine today who considers herself a "recovering Catholic" married to a Jewish man. She talked about how she was really having a hard time having "nothing" to believe in. She asked me what Heaven was to me, what the afterlife was to me. We talked about that, about carrying babies in our wombs, (the "before" life) and about death. It was a wonderful talk. I love so much to be able to discuss different spiritual ideas with people, without them constantly trying to convert me to their way of thinking, though I understand that for some people it's considered part of their religion so they feel they must.

I think sometimes that when we get away from Dogma, and can search our souls to find what is true for us. I do believe there are some Universal truths, and if we have the opportunity to seek them out, we can become much more deeply connected to that which is God, whatever that is for each of us. This can only be a good thing, I think.

My friend and I talked about the Ten Commandments. Whether or not one believes that they were sent to Moses, one can't argue that they're obviously a pretty good idea! You shouldn't kill. You should honor your parents. Adultery is wrong...and so on. Most "good" people, most thoughtful people would most likely figure this out on their own even if they had never heard the words before.

I feel that respect and love and honesty and goodness are sadly missing from our culture. Too much anger, too much hate, too much fighting. Too much sorrow. How can we heal the world? There are those who simply do not believe Jesus was the son of God and died and was risen. They just don't. But that shouldn't mean that they will be excluded from the essence of Oneness with the Universe, or not connected with Creation in the end, or God, or however you want to put it. Some tenets of organized religion are unacceptable to certain people, and they can't adhere to principles that are wrong to them. But this doesn't negate their spiritual selves, nor their belief systems. To me, any religion that shuns another persons spiritual beliefs is contributing to the sickness of Spirit in our world. Whether it's on a large scale like Palestine/Israel, the violence in Scotland, or a simple church stating that their way is "right" and all those who don't believe as they do need to be converted, or shunned, or excluded or not respected or whatever.

I agree with you about what you said about "support systems." My friend and I were talking about this very thing, though in a different way. I was saying that I think our loved ones who have died are still very much with us in spirit, and that they are together in that next dimension, or Heaven, whatever you want to call it. Our bodies may die, but our spirits continue on. It is all too big to simply end. The intensity of the love we feel, the connection that brings us together with other people in this life, this can't simply stop because the garment of flesh that holds us in this world is no longer needed.

Okay, now it's my turn to say sorry about running on and on! I get passionate about this stuff too! Amy

[Lynda/WA]

I read somewhere that non-traditional religions are on the rise while participation in the traditional christian ones are declining. Non-denominational Christian religions are especially on the rise.
If you think about it religion is like politics in one way. You may consider yourself a Democrate or a Republican but not agree with the party line on every issue. You may consider yourself a Wisconsin synid Lutheran and not believe everything that particular church teaches. Another person with the exact beliefs may call themselves a Missouri synid Lutheran, another may call themselves a Lutheran, and yet another may consider themselves non-denominational. My point is that a name is just a name. Since everyone within a *mainstream* religion has a different belief system anyways, I think its a bit hypocritical to critisize someone for what they call themselves.
I read huge amounts of historical romances. I've learned alot about how religion has changed. None of the Christian religions follow the same doctrine as when they began. Does this mean they were right and are going to heaven or we have changed it for the better and we get to go to heaven, not them? Some of the old beliefs just boggle my mind! I can't help but feel God will look at each person as an individual and judge them on intent not whether they followed a specific churches teachings exactly without using a little common sense. I don't think he even cares if he's called God or some other name. Ghandi and Mother Teresa will both make it to heaven before anyone I personally know.

[KarlaB]

Kind of off the main topic here...If you want another perspective or just support that our spirits live on when we die, that we all knew each other before in our spirit life, that our loved ones who have died are still with us, etc Sylvia Browne has some books that gave me a lot of comfort in facing and then accepting the death of my father-in-law and others close to me. She calls Heaven the "Other Side" and so much of what she has written and said about death, God, life and more has confirmed what I already believed and reinforced my beliefs and made me feel comforted. And, ITA with MK that "all people except those who are truly evil (murderers who have no remorse for thier actions) will go to Heaven." Anyway, not sure if anyone is familiar with Sylvia or even believes in what she does, but she does have some good info in her books.

[AnnW]

This all may be semantics, but I have often felt that those who call themselves "spiritual" are taking a salad bar view of religion..picking and choosing those aspects of a broad variety of religions to fit their particular tastes. I think that is wrong..there are things that are "hard" with all relgions but if you are a Kosher Jew you except that you can't eat certain foods, if you are a Muslim..you prayer at specified times whether it's convenient or not ect. I don't think you can't look at a religion...NOT a denomination, but the religion as a whole (take Christianity) and say "well, the not killing works for me, but I don't really buy into the whole Jesus is the son of God", or make it Mohammed if you are Muslim.
To me if someone describes themselves as "Godly" they are trying to have a personal relationship with their God, working everyday to follow his teachings, not adapting those teachings to fit into their lives.
Like I said, it may just all be semantics. :)

[Brichard]

MK,

I'm curious as to why you believe people without a relationship with Jesus Christ will go to heaven? I've not read the Bible through yet, but I've studied for years and I've read from Genesis to Proverbs (working my way from front to back!) Now I dont' claim to be a Bible Scholar, but phrases like "No one gets to the Father except through me" come to mind. Just curious what scripture makes you feel that way.

Now I've often struggled with what happens to people who are not ever introduced to the Lord. Do they go to hell? Or children who are too young to choose? It wouldn't seem fair to me. Its interesting because I brought this question up to one of the Elders of my church and he said that "The blood of those people are on our hands as Christians, this is why missionary work is so important so that all people may know the Gospel."

Again, I have real difficulty with that theory. But you know what... when discussing religious practices I always think of the last minister I had. I asked him "Do you believe a person needs to be baptised to be saved" He said "Do you want to ask a hard question or what?" He then went on to say that he was not God and did not want to pretend to know the answers to such questions. The thief on the cross was saved without being baptised, but many feel that was the last person to be saved until the covenant was finally reached with Jesus' death. But... at this church we try to follow what the early church seeked to establish as demonstrated in Acts. And... baptism was part of it.

Now, how many things can you not do and still be saved? Only God knows. Some things we just won't know until we meet our maker. But, as a conservative person I would implore you not to take a risk like that... not on eternity.

Now I also tend to side with Ann W. in that I personally don't think you should adapt your religion to your lifestyle or feelings rather then to the religion itself.

One other thing I want to throw out as a pet peeve is people who don't believe in Jesus as messiah, yet feel he is a good man. I don't see how you can do that. You have three choices:

1. Lord
2. Lunatic (Because he thought he was the Lord)
3. Liar (Because he made people think he was Lord)

If you believe number one, yes he is a good man. If you believe 2 or 3 I don't see how you come up to the same conclusion.

The Bible has about 6000 prophecies, of which over 3000 have come true. And there is tons of statistical evidence to support the resurrection of Jesus. There are answers to all the questions people have... like Evolution, Age of the Earth, etc.... but you have to dig to find the answers.

Now, I'm not in to nickel and dime comparisons among faith. If you believe in Jesus, God, and the Holy Ghost, that is the core of Christianity as I see it. And I agree that each individual should find their own truth. As long as that truth is through the Bible. Meaning, I don't think you should let a church or a preacher exclusively make decisions for you. They can be a great resource as I've quoted one above, but if you don't really learn it I fear your faith will be weaker when you are challenged.

Amy, I hope you don't see me as pretentious as that would not be an accurate description of me. My identical twin brother is agnostic (my best friend!) as is my neighbor who is one of my best friends. I am not Ned Flanders! But... when somebody asks or a door is opened... like in this discussion... I tell people how I believe. So, I don't think less of a person because they have different beliefs. Disagreeing with somebody is not equivalent to disrespecting them. It would be much more disrespectful to patronize somebody and say "I agree" when you in fact don't.

[AnnW]

""Disagreeing with somebody is not equivalent to disrespecting them. ""

How wonderfully said! I think that so many times in a discussion, our ego gets involved and it becomes more important to "convince" the other person that WE are right, we forget that it is just a discussion.

[Amy2]

Brichard, I caution folks to be careful with "some of my best friends" statements. I also think regarding the Jesus statement that there are more than three options between Lord, liar, or lunatic. I imagine there probably was a man named Jesus, and that many people may have followed his teaching. (Take a deep breath because I know this will be hard for you to hear) I don't believe he was the son of God, risen from the dead. I understand that you do, and that's great for you if that is what you believe, but no matter how much others want to convince me, when I've searched my heart, I just don't believe that.

Ann W, I whole heartedly and respectfully disagree with your "salad bar" statement. I can see it if someone says "I am an orthodox Jew, but I just looooove lobster bisque" or "I am Catholic but don't believe in Scarament" or whatever. Because in that case you are aligning yourself to a particular sect, and saying that you are choosing to follow that particular belief system.

To say you are a Spiritual person, or that you believe in God doesn't necessarily mean that you believe in God as the father of Jesus. Or that you believe any number of ideologies any particular religion espouses. I believe, it is saying that you believe there is a force greater than me, that it is connected to something very powerful, that it is more far reaching than just this lifetime. That it is based in love and kindness, and also in what is true for me.

[AnnW]

Amy..like I said, it was probably semantics, but I do have kind of a viseral reaction to the word "spiritual"! LOL What I meant by "salad bar" mentality is that I have seen so many people take a little of Hindu, saying "I don't believe in a cow being sacred, but I do believe in reincarnation", a little of Muslim (I am not sure Mohammed was a prophet but I do believe in their commitment to prayer", some of Christianity (I don't believe in sin but I do like that love your neighbor stuff) and mix it all together to form their basis of religion. To me, that is wrong. You can't, imho, just take the "good parts" of various religions (or even one) and make them your own and then toss out the rules or the "bad parts". Sometimes, practicing your religion is hard. It's like we tell our kids..it's not always easy to follow the rules, but you do. We don't tell our kids "take the rules that you like, look around at the rules your friends have to follow, and then decide which rules you want to follow." That's what I meant.

[KarlaB]

I just want to say that I think this is a really good post and that I am glad people aren't getting overly defensive and rude with one another. This has been very interesting to read.

I also really liked Brichard's comment, "Disagreeing with somebody is not equivalent to disrespecting them. "
And, Ann's, "Sometimes, practicing your religion is hard. It's like we tell our kids..it's not always easy to follow the rules, but you do. We don't tell our kids "take the rules that you like, look around at the rules your friends have to follow, and then decide which rules you want to follow.""

[Mickey]

Regarding the salad bar idea, that's exactly how various denominations of religions began. When people don't like or agree with one denomination's interpretations or teachings or laws, they start another similar denomination.

I agree with Lynda when she said that it's like being a Democrat or Republican in a lot of respects because I think that if everyone ONLY belonged to a religion/denomination/church if they whole-heartedly agreed/accepted every single thing, there would be MANY more denominations than there are already.

Regarding Buddhism, it's actually not really a religion. Buddah is not their "God", he's just an enlightened guy with and old soul who taught many valuable things to many people. Buddhism is more of a philosophy and that's why some people consider themselves both Christian and Buddhist. I haven't read it, but there's a book that's called "Going Home: Jesus and Buddha As Brothers" and it's supposed to be very interesting. There are many other books pulling the two together as well.

Amy, everyone believes that what they believe is "right" and the ONLY way to salvation. They simply can not accept how you or I (or anyone who believes differently than them) think and feel about all this because to do so, they'd have to admit that what they believe is wrong. It just goes against all that they have been taught and have come to believe, but that doesn't mean they are right and that theirs is the only "true" way to Heaven and God.

I believe that God is merciful and I don't believe He would condemn to Hell those who believe in their hearts that what they believe is "right" and "true". If so, then only a VERY small number of people--those who happened to be a part of that small and lucky group that "got it right"--will be going to Heaven. I don't believe that for a second.

Regarding "Heaven" itself, I believe it's all that's wonderful to you. Btw, I have that book "The Next Place" (recommended to me by mommies here) and I love it!

Here is a really interesting site if anyone's interested:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/


[Edited by Mickey on 03-02-2001 at 10:12 PM]

[Brichard]

Originally posted by Amy
[B]Brichard, I caution folks to be careful with "some of my best friends" statements.

Why? I just wanted to let you know that I don't feel like I'm above hanging out with non-Christians. Quite a few people I hang around aren't, so I gave examples. I can't stand Christians who thumb their noses down at other people and wanted to assure you I wasn't one of them. Heck, I've been a non-Christian, so I can relate to that. God wants me to treat all people well, regardless of their beliefs. I could never change your mind about your religious views, that comes from inside. All I can do is to invite you to know Jesus.


I also think regarding the Jesus statement that there are more than three options between Lord, liar, or lunatic.

Since the Bible details that he said over and over that he was the son of God, what other choices are there? I didn't come up with this argument, but it is a good one. If you have a number four I'd be curious what it is.


I imagine there probably was a man named Jesus, and that many people may have followed his teaching. (Take a deep breath because I know this will be hard for you to hear) I don't believe he was the son of God, risen from the dead. I understand that you do, and that's great for you if that is what you believe, but no matter how much others want to convince me, when I've searched my heart, I just don't believe that.

No deep breaths required! :) I've been on both sides of the fence and in the middle on Jesus, so I have no problem that others are in a different place then me. When in college studying cultural anthropology, I learned of all the different religions of the world and how geographical it was. I didn't want to be a Christian just because my parents were. So, I was a borderline atheist for many years. But, after me and my dw went back to Church... and this wasn't instantaneous... all of the intangibles started coming back. I really felt like I needed to get away to discover life without God before I truly discovered life with God.



To say you are a Spiritual person, or that you believe in God doesn't necessarily mean that you believe in God as the father of Jesus. Or that you believe any number of ideologies any particular religion espouses. I believe, it is saying that you believe there is a force greater than me, that it is connected to something very powerful, that it is more far reaching than just this lifetime. That it is based in love and kindness, and also in what is true for me.

This is the part that confuses me about your belief. What do you believe? Do you believe in the Bible?

By the way, just because I am convicted in my beliefs, I keep emotions out of debates. I can talk about religion, politics, or the Great Pumpkin without getting offended. :)

[Amy2]

Ann, I hear what you're saying, but I think for me I believe you CAN take all the good parts. That you actually SHOULD take all the good parts. I don't mean that in a flippant way, like, a person can do whatever they want, but I think of your example of Muslim commitment to prayer. I think that's great. I think we should all take time to sit and reflect and pray or meditate every day. I think if we did this, we would all be so much more peaceful. But no, I don't believe cows are sacred. The Jews do a Sabbath ritual that is wonderful, and the Passover ceremony makes me weep with it's symbolism and meaning, but I don't go to Synagog or take Micvah baths or consider myself a Jew. There are many aspects of Buddhism I find really vital and valid, but I am not a Buddhist. The fellowship of a Christian church is very inviting to me, but I don't believe in Jesus Christ....on and on.

I keep thinking of Joseph Campbell's Power of Myth. He takes stories from different religions and shows how similar they really are, and at the essence there is an almost Universal Truth that people are seeking, that is, connection to "God" whatever/whoever that may be.

In some ways, I think maybe you have hit on something very real. I think that many people simply cannot go along with certain aspects of a specific religion, for example Muslim because of the perceived Misogyny, Christianity because of the perceived homophobia, Mormonism because of...well, so many things, and so they then feel they can't consider themselves as belonging to that particular faith. So why does this mean they must believe nothing. Belong nowhere. There goes the baby with the bathwater. This doesn't make sense to me.

I agree that there must be some discipline involved. But sometimes it's hard to simply be a good person every day. To be respectful and honoring and non judgemental and all those things. And as someone said, if you look at most religions over the centuries, things have changed a lot. The Mormons only began allowing blacks in their church in the late seventies, I think. Many, many (many) Catholics use birth control. The Jews have been questioning the Torah for centuries, it's part of their whole journey. This is how new religions are created I imagine. We take the part that makes sense to us, add our own spices and Voila!

[Mickey]

If you don't mind my asking, I was wondering what changed your perspective? I have found that people who go from not believing to believing usually experience something horrible to get there or they have a near-death experience. Was that what happened with you or were you just going about your happy life and had a revelation one day? Was it a something you read or felt or what? Just wondering how it worked for you. I'm not trying to be rude in any way...I seriously am curious and if I've asked too personal a question, I apologize and please disregard it.

[Brichard]

Originally posted by Mickey
If you don't mind my asking, I was wondering what changed your perspective? I have found that people who go from not believing to believing usually experience something horrible to get there or they have a near-death experience. Was that what happened with you or were you just going about your happy life and had a revelation one day? Was it a something you read or felt or what? Just wondering how it worked for you. I'm not trying to be rude in any way...I seriously am curious and if I've asked too personal a question, I apologize and please disregard it.

Mickey, you can ask me just about anything and I won't be offended! I'm an extrovert to the maximum!

Anyway... your senses are accurate. I lived a country and western song for a week. ;) I lost my condominium in a fire as some people who had a drug lab in one of the attached units had an explosion. Angie R and I had been married for four months and poof... all our material posessions were gone.

Next... a week later I came in and was informed that my company was closing its office. So in the span of a week I lost my home and my job! Surprisingly enough I was always upbeat about it. Somebody died in the fire (one of the drug manufacturers) and me, my wife and my dog were never in any danger. When you go through that the only thing you really miss are pictures and mementos etc. As far as the material stuff... we had insurance for that.

Anyway... I started wondering if the Lord was trying to get my attention and decided to start going to church. We also had planned on having children soon and I wanted them to have the same moral fiber I had as a child. So, one could say I went back to church for all the wrong reasons.

But, the Lord works in mysterious ways. The more we went the more I realized what I was missing. The intangibles of feeling right with the Lord, it is just difficult to describe. I also found that I had not been objective in my pursuits of religion. I was so busy finding reasons to not believe in Christianity that I had tuned out all the reasons for it. The reason I advise people to read More Then a Carpenter is that it handles arguments on an almost purely scientific and phillosophical level.

My faith was very weak although I had been to church my entire life. That is why I mention the importance of study. If you don't know "why" you believe something it is difficult to defend yourself. I think blind faith is dangerous. But, God knows in his infinite wisdom that many people will fall off the path. I just finished reading the book of Proverbs and one of my favorites is "Train up a child right and when he is older he will not depart from it." I feel like that is exactly what happened to me and I'm thankful of the spiritual guidance of my parents.

[Mickey]

Originally posted by Brichard

Originally posted by Mickey
If you don't mind my asking, I was wondering what changed your perspective? I have found that people who go from not believing to believing usually experience something horrible to get there or they have a near-death experience. Was that what happened with you or were you just going about your happy life and had a revelation one day? Was it a something you read or felt or what? Just wondering how it worked for you. I'm not trying to be rude in any way...I seriously am curious and if I've asked too personal a question, I apologize and please disregard it.

Mickey, you can ask me just about anything and I won't be offended! I'm an extrovert to the maximum!

Anyway... your senses are accurate. I lived a country and western song for a week. ;) I lost my condominium in a fire as some people who had a drug lab in one of the attached units had an explosion. Angie R and I had been married for four months and poof... all our material posessions were gone.

Next... a week later I came in and was informed that my company was closing its office. So in the span of a week I lost my home and my job! Surprisingly enough I was always upbeat about it. Somebody died in the fire (one of the drug manufacturers) and me, my wife and my dog were never in any danger. When you go through that the only thing you really miss are pictures and mementos etc. As far as the material stuff... we had insurance for that.

Anyway... I started wondering if the Lord was trying to get my attention and decided to start going to church. We also had planned on having children soon and I wanted them to have the same moral fiber I had as a child. So, one could say I went back to church for all the wrong reasons.

But, the Lord works in mysterious ways. The more we went the more I realized what I was missing. The intangibles of feeling right with the Lord, it is just difficult to describe. I also found that I had not been objective in my pursuits of religion. I was so busy finding reasons to not believe in Christianity that I had tuned out all the reasons for it. The reason I advise people to read More Then a Carpenter is that it handles arguments on an almost purely scientific and phillosophical level.

My faith was very weak although I had been to church my entire life. That is why I mention the importance of study. If you don't know "why" you believe something it is difficult to defend yourself. I think blind faith is dangerous. But, God knows in his infinite wisdom that many people will fall off the path. I just finished reading the book of Proverbs and one of my favorites is "Train up a child right and when he is older he will not depart from it." I feel like that is exactly what happened to me and I'm thankful of the spiritual guidance of my parents.

Wow! Thank you for sharing your story! Got a little chuckle out of the country western song comment, but you certainly went through a lot and I'm glad you found your way as a result. I will definitely look for that book. Thanks again for the response!

[AnnW]

Not always something horrible....My dh and his brother didn't grow up in the church..his father didn't believe in "organized religion". When dh was in high school a friend invited him to go to youth group..dh went along cause it was a good excuse to get out of the house! LOL
Anyway, he started listening to the lessons and realized that he wanted the relationship with God that they were talking about.

[AnnW]

Originally posted by Brichard


But, the Lord works in mysterious ways. The more we went the more I realized what I was missing. The intangibles of feeling right with the Lord, it is just difficult to describe. [/B]

This is what happened with my dh too!

What an amazing story..you and Angie have really been through alot!

[KarlaB]

That is an amazing story! So glad you guys got thru it all!!

[Amy2]

To Brichard~
I don't "believe in" the Bible, no. I don't believe it is God's word passed down through God's disciples. I don't believe that it is necessarily the road map of our lives, any more than the Koran, the Torah...you know. It offers many wonderful things, but I don't look to it to make my Spiritual (sorry Ann!) choices.
I feel sometimes like many people pick and choose which parts of the Bible they adhere to yet tout that the Bible is Gospel and must be followed at all costs. I also feel there are so many things in this day and age that are simply inappropriate, if not personally repugnant.
As I said before about Joseph Campbell's Power of Myth, I believe the bible stories are not literal, but allegories (is this the word I'm looking for? I get them mixed up) to help us ponder situations, and figure out the most positive (Godly?) choices. I believe you can find truths in all great literature if you are willing to search for it.

[Brichard]

Originally posted by Amy
[B]To Brichard~
I feel sometimes like many people pick and choose which parts of the Bible they adhere to yet tout that the Bible is Gospel and must be followed at all costs.

When people just "leave out" scripture they don't like, to me that is hypocritical to following the Bible. But, honestly I think that it is just as erroneous to pick and choose the parts you want from different religions and create your own. To me those are similar phillosophies.

Now, if people dislike Christians because they think they are all hypocrites, that can be difficult. Basically, we are all trying to emulate a perfect person and in turn... all fall short of our goal. And if you are using the definition of hypocrite as "saying one thing and doing another," then we are all hypocrites. But... we know we all sin and simply seek forgiveness. Now people can take it to extremes, so I certainly don't agree with people who are blatantly committing the same sins over and over with no challenge to correct their ways, or no remorse. We all fall short of the glory of God, which is the whole reason for Calvary.


I also feel there are so many things in this day and age that are simply inappropriate, if not personally repugnant.

Well the Bible is a pretty violent book, particularly the Old Testament. There are things there that leave you scratching your head like, "Why are their multiple wives yet Genesis says that God only wants you to have one?" I don't have an answer as to why. But I don't think knowing one way or the other is tantamount to my faith. What I was doing before when I was picking apart the Bible was "missing the forrest for the trees."

The other issue that I have is that we have finite minds and God has an infinite mind. Based on our knowledge, things may not make sense... but we are not God. If God were to meet us at birth and hand us the Bible and say "Do good or bad things will happen!," then the world would be a great big Skinner box where we were getting zapped each time we made a mistake. God would have created robots instead of people after his own heart.

God doesn't make it that easy, but God has left alot of clues.

[Brichard]

Mickey, Karla B, and Ann W.:

Thanks for your kind words and I am happy to share. If any of you are in to reading books on religion, I'll tell you some more of my favorite authors/Subjects.

Evoloution/Creation- There are some great books on describing the arguments for Creation. Ken Ham is the guy that has been recommended to me the most and I have read "Evolution, The lie." I've got 2 other books I'm reading, and if either of you have an interest in the subject I'll give you my 2 cents worth on them. Their is alot more in the first days of creation then meets the eye! He'll show you a whole new way to look at things. Mind expanding stuff.

Phillip Yancy- I just love his stuff! I've read "The Jesus I Never Knew" and "Dissappointment with God." Both are great books. Some of his stuff gets pretty deep, but I like that sort of thing. ;)

Henrietta Mears- "What the Bible is all About"- it is a short summary of what each book of the Bible is about in just a few short pages. It has been very helpful as I read through the Bible.

Dobson- "When God Doesn't Make Sense" Great book covering similar ground with "Dissappointment with God."

Well, thats enough... and you didn't ask me for a bibliography anyway! But, I don't know how much longer I'll be on the board anyway as this is my dw's turf... but if you could get some Pacer fans... lol!