Should we bring back the draft?

[Brichard]

This was the subject of a talk show I heard today when driving back from an appointment. Most callers were older and had already served in the military and completeley supported bringing back the draft. They argued that the "Army never hurt anybody and it would teach this generation about courage, discipline, respect, pride for your nation... etc." Many also felt like women should be part of the draft if they were put in roles not involving combat.

I guess in Israel everybody has to put in two years of time in the military.

The one dissenting caller I heard wanted to see criminals go in his place. He felt like they could be broken down by the military and he would rather have them go in his place. The talk show host argued that the last person you would want to fight and depend on would be somebody who couldn't adapt to basic rules of life, much less the harsh discipline of the military. However, one caller did say that at the end of WWII when things were getting a little desperate that some ciriminals were allowed to enlist. He trained some that he seemed to think would do ok, but he was unsure how they did.

It is easy for me to say that we should have the draft, but I really think it would have more plusses then minuses. I'm not sure that I agree that everybody should do 2 years of time like in Israel, but I often wonder if we are ready for combat. The more trained resources the better in the event of a conflict like what we have seen in recent years.

What do you think?

[Amy]

Thats a hard call. My dh was borderline deliquent when he entered the Army and they turned him into a stand-up guy. If we wanted to teach at risk youth about pride and loyalty, then it is a good alternative. For overall draft ideas, i don't think its necessary. We don't have our Grandfather's Army anymore. Everything is high tech and the use of ground troops have dwindled to humanitarian causes only.

The last two wars we fought have used aircraft and bombs as our main source of destruction. Im glad we value human life and are reluctant to sacrifice our soldiers, so this is the war of the future. Thankfully the powerhouse countries are our allies now, so that is less stress for a "full blown" war.

Sorry-my thoughts are really scattered and hope this flows right! LOL

[Jeff]

I think if the result is to have a more prepared and dedicated military then having mandatory time would not achieve that goal.

[Amy2]

Choosing to use weapons and be trained to kill another human being should be a person's choice. There are other ways to serve one's country. Amy

[Brichard]

Originally posted by Amy
Choosing to use weapons and be trained to kill another human being should be a person's choice. There are other ways to serve one's country. Amy

Those are good points. One of the caveats mentioned was allowing passivists the ability to serve in the military in a non-combative role.

[JAK]

I'd have to say no way! There are enough stupid people who actually join on their own and can't make it. I can't imagine them being forced to join.

My dh like Amy/CO's wasn't such a great teenager, and the Air Force has been one of the best things he could have done for himself. The difference is like night and day.

I do believe that people should have the right to choose if they want to join the military, but there are so many different career fields that you can join the military and do just about anything. Including being a doctor, a lawyer or dentist


As far was what Amy say about people chosing to be "trained to kill another human being". I'd have to say that's a bunch of crap. My dh has never been trained to kill someone.

[Amy]

This is what my dh said. You don't want anyone there that doesn't want to be there. It would drag down the integrity and quality of the Army. He thinks it should be kept as a professional career of choice.

Dh IS trained to kill in many different techniques. His is in a very specialized field and very commando "like". The rest of the army DOES learn how to operate a gun and target practice at the basic level, but are not trained to be proactive like my dh.

[JAK]

Amy/CO- It looks like you said it better than I did. My dh is not trained to kill and many other thousands in the military are not either, but yes I know there are people who are. I just didn't want it assumed that ALL people in the military are. You can choose that kind of carrer field but you don't have to.

[Brichard]

Originally posted by Amy/CO
This is what my dh said. You don't want anyone there that doesn't want to be there. It would drag down the integrity and quality of the Army. He thinks it should be kept as a professional career of choice.

What your dh says makes alot of sense, but some of the older callers who were veterans and the host said that you would be surprised what leadership qualities were available in some of the most fearful soldiers. My basic concern is making sure we do have enough military forces should ground troops be necessary. I think we are all glad that we use troops only when necessary, but this whole Afghanistan situation just reminds the world what happens when some knuckleheads with money plot destruction.

Unfortunately history has a way of repeating itself, so I'm sure ground troops will be used in the future.

One other piece of the article I found interesting was the enlistment of celebrities like Elvis, Jimmy Stewart, Henry Fonda, and Ted Williams. Ted Williams was actually in two conflicts... I think WWII and Korea. Can you imagine Jerry Seinfeld and Shaquille O'neal in the armed forces?

Has anybody else read the Greatest Generation by Tom Brokaw? It is a great book and I have sooo much respect for the WWII generation.

Thanks for the input from the military family side. You all have a close view that I don't have.

[Lynda/WA]

I'm against bringing back the draft. It was seriously mentioned awhile ago on the hill. Like in late 99 or early 00? I'm much more in favor of improving the pay, conditions and benefits. I can see some advantages to allowing some *delinquent* types another option by enlisting. I know one of my instructors in Air Force Tech school said he was given the option of enlisting or going to jail. I think he had been a habitual joy rider. And this would have been Vietnam era.

I think its necessary that anyone in the military choose to be there. Granted the vast majority of the people don't carry a gun but I'd hate for one of them to be a disgruntled employee! Leaving everything I knew and going into the military was one of the hardest yet most rewarding things I have ever done. If I had been forced to join I may have become resentful during the hard times. That wouldn't have been a good thing for my co-workers. Co-workers whose lives depended on my doing my job correctly.

JAK and Amy/CO are both correct about the training. Army and Marines receive much, much more combat training. Even those that don't have combat type jobs as their primary job like cooks. Air Force has much less. I could probably sit down and figure out the number of times I had any weapons training in 10 years. Never shot at a human silhoutte. Never had any hand to hand combat. Shoot- Amy with her knife training is more of a trained killer then I am!

And like others have said, the military is becoming increasingly high tech. I've always wished I could find a book that catalouged technology developed by the military but then transfered to the civilian world. I bet it would be huge! And demands are made on even low ranking people to learn more than the typical worker.

The smartest people I have ever met were all military. For example - I worked with linguists. Some of them knew a half dozen different languages. I have only met one person that knew more than three in the civilian world. In fact I myself had one person kicked out of the Air Force. Not because he was a bad person. The guy just couldn't do the work. He was book smart but couldn't transfer what he read to on the job. Maybe someone else can give the current stats on percentage of military people with various degrees. I know it is very high for the Air Force. No offense to other branches implied. I only paid attention to the Air Force stats. I'm thinking it was 80+% with associates degrees? I remember being very impressed with the number of bachelor and masters degrees as well.
I think it was something like 99% with HS level eduation. I just read an article today that said only 2/3rds of Oregon HS students graduate. I wouldn't want that remaining 33% drafted!

I'm against allowing pacifists the ability to serve in the military in a non-combative role. First off even non-combat jobs go to war areas. Cooks, mechanics, and desk jockies all get sent to the area. They are the support network for the actual combat people. They aren't behind enemy lines but they are in high risk areas. Think China Beach and MASH. Or how about the downed spy plane. Women didn't hold combat roles per se but may still be sent to areas that were risky. Someone had to fix that truck hauling the troops. So lets say you allow pacifists to be auto mechanics since that's a non-combat job. Then you further state that they will remain stateside to reduce the chances of them having to act against their beliefs. So now only the non-pacifist auto mechanics go to the war zone and surrounding areas. So instead of rotating around from stateside to danger area the non-pacifists are stuck there ALL the time! Hardly fair to those guys is it?

When I was stationed in Germany I was given a top secret clearance. I questioned why the money was spent since I was just a mechanic and didn't work with that type of material. I was told that if those people were killed off, I would be shifted from my job and given on the job in the field training. Faster then bringing someone new into the Air Force. So even some of those people in *safe* jobs may be moved to riskier jobs in a down and dirty war with large casualties.

As it is you already have people that may temporarily be placed in a *non-deployable* status. While I was pregnant I was coded so I would be sent anywhere. If you have a very sick child you can be coded to get certain bases (but not get out of deployments). If you were hurt you may be coded for up to a certain time to heal. While my base was closing they froze us there until it closed. And last I heard there was still a law on the books that if you were the sole surviving son you could also request a non-war areas. I think that was begun because of the story behind Saving Private Ryan. All of the sons in a family but one died so they pulled the sole remaining son out of combat.

I have mixed feelings about woman in combat roles. We had a mini baby boom among the single active duty woman during Desert Storm. At least two of the woman scheduled to go got pregnant just prior to leaving. That meant two men needed to go instead. I do think that if there ever is a draft women should be required to be draftable.

Just an interesting side note- When I was stationed at Travis I was already off the maintenance floor and working at a desk. The base had a collection of pictures from the base taken during WWII. They decided to take present day pictures to match the WWII pictures. The kind were you put everyone in the same positions to match the old photo. The one from our shop had 3 WWII female mechanics working on a truck. We didn't have a single one working on the floor! They pulled me and the one other former female mechanic from our desks to take the picture. I thought it was a hoot that back in those ages of discrimination they had more female mechanics then were willing to do it now. And now a days they try to steer females to non-traditional roles! I was told that the women were trained as and given traditional male roles since the guys were in the war zones.

[JeffP/MN]

Good comments!

My feeling is that a draft is not needed now and if it is not needed, then why bother? I think a better approach is to spend more on training and spare parts so we are more effective. From what I can tell talking to people, the military went downhill significantly over the last 8 years. In any event, the kind of war we are likely to fight in the future is not about amassing large armies to square off against each other so the purpose of the draft is reduced.

Furthermore, if we did go to a draft, I have a feeling that people would surprised at how many people would refuse to go. If you think it was bad in Vietnam, watch what would happen today. I believe many young people (and in fairness many within our society) are very self centered and do not appreciate how blessed they are.

Personally, if I were drafted I would go. I would be a terrible soldier but freedom and our way of life is important enough that it is worth fighting for.

Jeff

[Amy2]

Originally posted by JAK

As far was what Amy say about people chosing to be "trained to kill another human being". I'd have to say that's a bunch of crap. My dh has never been trained to kill someone. [/B]

Ummmm, Jen, what do you think they are supposed to do with those rifles? Shoot tin cans off the fence posts?

I'm sorry, I just can't wrap my head around this. Isn't this what armies DO? I mean, we didn't send our troups, planes, bombs into Afghanastan to sit them down and give them a good talking to did we? Soldiers are trained to kill the enemy, right? Am I missing something?

Amy

[AnnW]

Originally posted by Amy


Ummmm, Jen, what do you think they are supposed to do with those rifles? Shoot tin cans off the fence posts?

I'm sorry, I just can't wrap my head around this. Isn't this what armies DO? I mean, we didn't send our troups, planes, bombs into Afghanastan to sit them down and give them a good talking to did we? Soldiers are trained to kill the enemy, right? Am I missing something?

Amy


I don't think the JAG officers, army mechanics, naval meterologist, army dentists (to name a few) are toting rifles and killing people. Maybe way back in basic they were taught how to use a gun, but the JOB they are doing for the military doesn't involve killing.

I think Lynda/WA made a good point when she said "JAK and Amy/CO are both correct about the training. Army and Marines receive much, much more combat training. Even those that don't have combat type jobs as their primary job like cooks. Air Force has much less. I could probably sit down and figure out the number of times I had any weapons training in 10 years. Never shot at a human silhoutte. Never had any hand to hand combat. Shoot- Amy with her knife training is more of a trained killer then I am! "

[Amy2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AnnW
[B]


I don't think the JAG officers, army mechanics, naval meterologist, army dentists (to name a few) are toting rifles and killing people. Maybe way back in basic they were taught how to use a gun, but the JOB they are doing for the military doesn't involve killing.

Yes, perhaps the JOB they do doesn't involve killing, but they do learn this in basic training. If you look at the "Be all that you can be" commercials for the armed forces, they appear to be doing maneuvers that simulate combat. The thought of holding or firing a gun is abhorent to me personally. If I were drafted, I would have to learn to use one, be taught to aim it and fire it, obstensibly at the bad guys (be trained to kill another human being) and I believe this should be one's choice. Also, I am curious, if we have the draft would one be able to say "You know, I'd really prefer to be a mechanic rather than a combat soldier" or would one just have to take what they are assigned?

Amy

PS Why isn't everyone jumping all over Jen's case for saying that my feeling/thoughts are "a bunch of crap". That's not "nice" is it? Or is it simply subjective, dependent upon who speaks it?

[AnnW]

Originally posted by Amy
[QUOTE
PS Why isn't everyone jumping all over Jen's case for saying that my feeling/thoughts are "a bunch of crap". That's not "nice" is it? Or is it simply subjective, dependent upon who speaks it?


Cause, thanks to you and others who have made the point, we have finally gotten the message that we are too sensitive and have learned to appreciate people "who tell it like it is".

[Amy]

Lets get some fact straight. Im not sure where everyone is getting their "inside information" when none of you except Jen and I live it everyday.

NO-you don't learn shooting in basic training.

YES-you do have a choice in the field you want to go into-especially if you are on the GI Bill.

NO-You can't believe what you see in the commercials as true to everyday life in the military.

YES-many military are trained to shoot a weapon for self-defense or protection from offenders. No different than learning self-defense and using knives as a way to protect yourself and kill other people in the line of self defense.

Whether we all decide that the draft is unnecessary or not, lets not forget that without them, we wouldn't be living the life we have now with all the choices we have now. As ugly as killing is, we wouldn't have our freedom and our different voices.

[Amy2]

Originally posted by AnnW



Cause, thanks to you and others who have made the point, we have finally gotten the message that we are too sensitive and have learned to appreciate people "who tell it like it is".

Ann W!!! You appreciate me! You really appreciate me! Thanks!

Amy

[JeffP/MN]

Originally posted by Amy/CO
As ugly as killing is, we wouldn't have our freedom and our different voices.

Exactly! Unfortunately many people (not saying anyone here) forget that. We live in a society where many are simply focused on themselves and do want to be bothered with a duty to country. They honestly believe that this country has done nothing for them.

Does anyone disagree that if we had a draft, at best we would have Vietnam type draft dodging?

Jeff

[AnnW]

Originally posted by Amy


Ann W!!! You appreciate me! You really appreciate me! Thanks!

Amy



We all have our jobs around here! :)

[RCT]

Should we bring back the draft?
IMHO NO...I don't think that its necessary now, and I agree that people should be in the Service by choice.....JMHO

[Diane]

I agree that they shouldn't bring it back unless it gets to the point where they have no choice... but right now, absolutely not! :)

Diane... :wave:

[Brichard]

I have to admit that I have been surprised that the military people are not in favor of the draft. I'll tell you why I feel that way.

1.) Every caller on the show with Military experience I heard was all for the draft. They saw the value in what the Army provides and thought everybody could use some of the basic disciplines.

2.) All people involved in the military seem to feel waaayy overworked and underpaid. Adding more people wouldn't increase the pay, but it seems like it would reduce the workload.


Somebody above mentioned the "new" military where technology ruled over ground troops. So... it sounds as if this may just be a generational gap. Most of the other callers were WWII, Korean, and Vietnam war veterans.

However, what is the solution to number two? Is the military not allowing enough people in who want to be there b/c of budget cuts?

I know that sounds strange, but I really think the military has purposefully shrunk at certain times. I had a roomate in college who was in ROTC and was studying to be a dentist (he is today.) At his application he was asked if he had asthma, he marked "No" b/c although he experienced it as a child he had not had any issues for years.

Later on they polled the soldiers again and said "You'd better not lie about anything this time, so really consider your answers." He was a bit perplexed when he came to the asthma question again and marked it "Yes" this time just to be sure. Well... they gave him something... it made him wheeze... and out the door he went. Fortunately they didn't make him backpay all his prior tuition assistance, but he was allowed no more.

All of this went on while others he was in ROTC with used to tote around their inhalers.

So... what is the solution for our overworked military?

Just curious about your thoughts.

[JAK]

Amy- I was saying that your statement was a bunch of crap, not you. You can not assume that you know what each and every person in each branch of the service is trained or not trained to do. There are hundreds of thousands of people in the military and they each have a job to do. Not every one of them has been "trained to kill another human being". I just wanted you to be clear on that point.


The military is underpaid for what they do. You can do a job in the military and be in the poverty level of pay. The same job in the outside world can start you out at $60,000 a year. Big difference. A lot of people don't stay in the military for that reason. They can get paid (although not well) for their training and get out after 4 years and make good money. Wouldn't you leave too?

Military members are lucky if they get to work 40 hours a week, Monday-Friday like most people. They do not get paid overtime and they don't always get hoildays off. They spend months at a time away from their families and miss many of their children's milestones in life to defend their (and our) country. Believe me most people who stay in the military don't stay because of the money or the "benefits" they get. There really aren't that many good benefits that the military gets these days. They stay because they love their country and some of them even love what they do. When they retire they won't get a big retirement check, but they will at least get something. Not to mention they have their pride.

In my first post I said that there are enough stupid people who joined the militaryon their own free will, what I meant was- there are several young people who join the military for the education, because they felt it would be an easy job- or for many other reasons. These young people can not make it to work on time, can't do simple things like iron their uniform or even keep their haircuts correctly. I think any person with a brain knows there are rules and regulations you have to follow when you join the military- these kids can not even follow the simplest ones. They are getting kicked out for failure to adapt. If these people made the decision to join and they can't do it what makes you think that people who are drafted can follow these rules.

There are less people in the military today thanks to Clinton. I don't know a way to solve the problem of our overworked military, but most non-military people don't really care, or even understand what the military members do. It seems like whenever something happens and it's big on the news then the non-military people start asking questions.

[Amy2]

Originally posted by JAK
There are less people in the military today thanks to Clinton. I don't know a way to solve the problem of our overworked military, but most non-military people don't really care, or even understand what the military members do. It seems like whenever something happens and it's big on the news then the non-military people start asking questions. [/B]

Why are there less people in the military thanks to Clinton?

Amy

[JAK]

Originally posted by Amy


Why are there less people in the military thanks to Clinton?

Amy



Because while he was in office there was a bit of downsizing of the military and quite a few bases were closed. I don't pay too much attention to politics so I can't tell you the exact reason for this happening. Maybe someone else could.

[Lynda/WA]

Yes, the military is overworked and waaaay underpaid. Most of the people I knew had no problem doing hard work. Even alot of it. In fact DH now works for a company that prefers to hire prior military. They have found that those guys are less likely to complain from overwork. One year DH put in just over 1,000 hours overtime. That was on top of his approx 2,000 regular work hours!

Our (DH and I are both prior AF) biggest complaint was the pay. When DH got out he went to work in basically the same field but for a commercial company. He makes 3 times what he did as active duty. When I got out to become a SAHM we didn't really miss my paycheck. It basically paid only for daycare and that was after bing in the Air Force for 10 years. Rank wise I was right about average for my career field and time in service.

When I was debating getting out the benefits were a topic of debate. Most of the guys that had retired from the military and then went civil service said they didn't know if they would have stuck it out to retirement with all of the changes. Things that had been promised were being taken away. Base closures meant less hospitals. reitrees that had been promised lifelong helathcare were being told there wasn't room at the hospitals. Once I had an eye exam. As I was waiting I spoke with a couple of older guys in the waiting room. They said they needed to make their appointments a full year in advance. They said they would make their next appointment as soon as they walked out finished with this one. This is what they served in WWII for?

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for base closures to save money but those bases remaining should be provided with the money to take care of the people left.

I can't remember the exact figures but on one of the news shows (MSNBC?)they talked about how the military had been cut. I think it said that there were half as many people? At least most of that happened during the Clinton era. And it said that deployments had been increased by 300%. That one was during the Clinton era alone. In fact it said that more people were being deployed then during Vietnam! More people being sent to more contries on *peacekeeping* missions. I can't remember the rough number they said that troops were currently at (this was about 2 years ago) but it was hundreds.

So my solution would be to get out of some of these countries. I really don't think we need to be everywhere.

And increase they pay for the people. That's the biggest one. So many people say the military budget is so big that the people must be getting that. Not even close. My Dad actually thought we got paid overtime. WRONG! My fist paychecks were just over 200 for two weeks plus a dorm room and chow hall food. It didn't matter that I was working 12s 6 days a week. Put it this way - we always hear how little teachers make. At 10 years in the military I made about 10,000 LESS then my SIL a teacher. And I could be sent anywhere in the world at a moments notice without my family for 3, 6 or 12 months at a time. normal stuff. Plus I worked waaaay more hours. And in worse physical conditions.

I'd let the military decide where to spend the money. Congess shouldn't be able to line a porkbarrel program with military money. If the military doens't want any more MREs (Meals Ready to Eat), they souldn't be forced to buy them by congress. And if the military doesn't want a weapons system they shouldn't be forced to buy it by some congressman that wants to create jobs in his state. They souldn't have to pay more for supllies just so it can support a minority owned businesses.

I think alot of people have a misconception about how much money is spent on the military. Many of those dollars are used for research. And that research benefits everyone. Things like Sonograms, infrared all start with military dollars then find viable uses in the civilian sector.

Some is used for relief and/or rescues. For example we had someone from my shop deployed to Florida nearly a year after Hugo hit. The military was still helping that long after. At my next base we had a large medical facility. Those people were always being sent out to help at any natural or man made disaster. As soon as you heard something had happened in another part of the country you were looking at your stuff and making sure it was ready if needed. Immediately after hearing of Oklahoma City bombing we knew our medical people would be sent so we pulled out the kits for them. I'm sure they were at the WTC. And that's not counting the ones now doing guard duty at airports. I've heard of military helping find kids lost in the woods, boaters in distress, injured climbers on mountians. The list goes on. When the Clarrisa went down on the NW coast the military helped with the salvage effort.

And compared to other spending it isn't as much as you may think. About 3 years ago one of the news stations broke down where the tax dollars (local, state, federal) of a family of 4 making 50,000 went. They put it in terms of the money from 14 days of work will solely go to education. Education was double military spending. That even threw me at first. Then I realized that ALL military spending comes from federal. Education money comes from local, state and federal. Nearly everything but military spending is that way. I'm not sure abut money for the Guards since that's a state thing. It makes it seem that military spending is greater then it is in comparison to education or social programs. And part of that military spending DOES go towards things like education. The Departpment of Defense has to provide the schools for children living overseas.

Basically what I'm saying is that the military does waaay more than you may realize and with less money then you think. We had a saying - Do more with less. I think the allocated money could be spent more effectively - namely on wages, benefits, and needed supplies. I don't think the military's problem is as much needing more people as needing the ability to make its own decisions over what and how its money is spent.

[coulie]

Hello Everybody at IB,

I think I was here back in the spring. Since then My DH and I bought a house. No small task for us. I am grateful for the experience. Then Sept 11 happened, and now here I am again, I suppose just out of curiosity.
I am intrigued by the discussions about the draft. I have two boys and one is fast approaching draft age. The whole 9/11 thing turned my reality upside down and really tested by belief system.
I raised my boys with the "NO WAR TOY" philosophy and now they sit and watch two planes explode into buildings on the morning news. I am left to impart some sort of wisdom and philosophy on them. I felt like a magician with no rabbit in my hat that day. Weird really.

I guess we just try to do our best and don't give up and if there is a draft and my boys go I will hope that I will have imparted some wisdom to get them through.

but war and military .....it's about defense and it is most certainly about killing. All the arguments about draftees just being there for tech training and the fact that being in the military isn't about killing is just crap. Military is for the sole purpose of being prepared to kill even if you actually don't pull the trigger.

God forbid my boys go to war but God forbid more, that they go with the illusion that the mission only involves a computer.

Good to be here for a visit and I will try to come back a bit more,

Coulie

[Mickey]

Originally posted by coulie
Hello Everybody at IB,

I think I was here back in the spring. Since then My DH and I bought a house. No small task for us. I am grateful for the experience. Then Sept 11 happened, and now here I am again, I suppose just out of curiosity.
I am intrigued by the discussions about the draft. I have two boys and one is fast approaching draft age. The whole 9/11 thing turned my reality upside down and really tested by belief system.
I raised my boys with the "NO WAR TOY" philosophy and now they sit and watch two planes explode into buildings on the morning news. I am left to impart some sort of wisdom and philosophy on them. I felt like a magician with no rabbit in my hat that day. Weird really.

I guess we just try to do our best and don't give up and if there is a draft and my boys go I will hope that I will have imparted some wisdom to get them through.

but war and military .....it's about defense and it is most certainly about killing. All the arguments about draftees just being there for tech training and the fact that being in the military isn't about killing is just crap. Military is for the sole purpose of being prepared to kill even if you actually don't pull the trigger.

God forbid my boys go to war but God forbid more, that they go with the illusion that the mission only involves a computer.

Good to be here for a visit and I will try to come back a bit more,

Coulie


Hey! Good to see you back, Coulie! Hope you stay! :)

Congrats on the house! Isn't moving fun??? LOL!

[coulie]

Hi Mickey,

Thanks for the greeting. The house is great but it's a fixer upper. Lots of work to do still. Moving really sucks. My ds developed some back problems as a result of moving the heavy stuff. I feel pretty guilty about it. But, we're in and wow! I am really glad we were able to do it.

I hope to come visit a bit more often but we'll see. Amy and I talk once in a while and she let's me know how you are. She is a very busy mom these days. Anyway....I must go take care.

Coulie

[Amy2]

Coulie!!! I almost fell off my swivel chair when I saw your name on the board! Glad to have you back, woman! Missed you!

Amy