Thoughts...

[Hannah596]

In light of the shootings in California, let's see, I think it started when Madeline Murray O'Hare complained she didn't want any prayer in our schools, and we said OK.

Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school.... the Bible that says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said, OK.

Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem. And we said, an expert should know what he's talking about so we said OK, we won't spank them anymore.

Then someone said teachers and principals better not discipline our children when they misbehave. And the school administrators said no faculty member in this school better touch a student when they misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely don't want to be sued.(There's a big difference between disciplining and touching, beating, smacking, humiliating, kicking, etc.) And we accepted their reasoning.

Then someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they want, and they won't even have to tell their parents. And we said, that's a grand idea.

Then some wise school board member said, since boys will be boys and they're going to do it anyway, let's give our sons all the condoms they want, so they can have all the fun they desire, and we won't have to tell their parents they got them at school. And we said, that's another great idea.

Then some of our top elected officials said it doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do our jobs. And agreeing with them, we said it doesn't matter to me what anyone, including the President, does in private as long as I have a job and the economy is good.

And then someone said let's print magazines with pictures of nude women and call it wholesome, down-to-earth appreciation for the beauty of the female body. And we said we have no problem with that.

And someone else took that appreciation a step further and published pictures of nude children and then stepped further still by making them available on the internet. And we said they're entitled to their free speech.

And the entertainment industry said, let's make TV shows and movies that promote profanity, violence, and illicit sex. And let's record music that encourages rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes. And we said it's just entertainment, it has no adverse effect, and nobody takes it
seriously anyway, so go right ahead.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves. Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great
deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."


Dear God,
Why didn't you save the kids in California?
Sincerely,
Concerned Student

AND THE REPLY

Dear Concerned Student,
I am not allowed in schools.
Sincerely,
God.

Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell.

Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.

Funny how everyone wants to go to heaven provided they do not have to believe, think, say, or do anything the Bible says.

Funny how someone can say, "I believe in God" but still follow Satan who,by the way, also "believes" in God.

Funny how we are quick to judge but not to be judged.

Funny how you can send a thousand 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire, but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.

Funny how the lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene pass freely through Cyberspace, but the public discussion of Jesus is suppressed in the school and workplace.

Funny how someone can be so fired up for Christ on Sunday, but be an invisible Christian the rest of the week.

Are you laughing?

Funny how I can be more worried about what other people think of me than what God thinks of me.

Are you thinking?

[Tessa]

I believe religion and freedom of religion should be taught in our schools, and by religion I mean all types not just christianity.

I believe spanking is ok in the some circumstances but should not be used as your common disciplinary procedure and can definately harm a child if it is overused.

I would be mortified if a teacher at a school spanked my child, I believe schools should use an approach of taking away childrens priviledges for punishment.

I personally could not even comtemplate having an abortion, but I believe every woman should have the freedom of choice.

Its up to parents to teach their sons and daughters about sexual morals and its up to parents and the community to protect their sons and daughters against pregnancy and disease.

I don't care what the president of America does in his spare time, there are bigger issues in the world such as poverty and destruction of natural habitats.

I don't care if some women want to make money by posing nude for magazines and I don't think it harms the men who look at the pictures.

I certainly do care about child pornography and it must be stopped now. Anyone who understands the internet will know that policing child pornography is difficult, but recently arrests have been made in the UK and I don't believe that anyone finds child pornography acceptable at all.

I do believe that movies and music need to be censored and that all dangerous themes and images should be cut out.

But back to the main issue of kids killing kids, why not simply make a start and get the guns off the street? Ban semi-automatic weapons and hand guns. License owners of recreational weapons such as shot-guns and make background checks on licensees. Have strict laws on the storing of weapons in the home, eg, guns locked in a safe and ammunition locked in separate safe. Have harsh penalities on the missuse of guns and not storing weapons correctly.

I also have to add that parenting is a lifetime commitment and we as the parents need to provide our children with love and support. We need to encourage social and communication skills. We need to teach them right from wrong ourselves and not expect it will be done in the schools. We need to be there for them.... forever.

While I think the morals of the community as a whole are heading in a downward spiral, I think its wrong to lump all these issues together and say this is why kids are killing each other. I think its important to look at these issues one at a time to tackle the problem.

[Linda/NE]

I had read the first post in a forward quite a few times before. I honestly think it does make a lot of sense.

I don't have time to touch on all the issues, but I did have these thoughts come to mind on a few issues.

Abortion--I've heard a lot of people say that they would never have one, but it should be the mother's choice. The problems I see with this line of thinking is this: 1) the child belongs to the father too (and as far as I know there is little or no legislation that gives him a choice in the matter) 2) That child is a life--a living being--it may not survive at the earliest stages outside the womb but who are we to decide it doesn't get the chance to? 3) What happens if somehow everyone would agree to the idea that it should be the woman's choice and someone else comes along and suggests they should get to make the choice for the woman, etc. When will it stop? If we give an inch how many miles will be taken from us?

Also concerning abortion--I heard someone say once--Just because it's legal doesn't make it right. Slavery was once legal-did that make it right? Do you suppose some people said they'd never think about owning slaves but it should be the individuals choice? Slaves were living breathing beings that some didn't think could survive on their own.


Another thought on the guns--yes, they definitely need to enforce the gun laws they have. Unfortunately no matter how strict the laws are, how careful parents are, if someone wants a gun they'll find a way to get one. IF a troubled child wants to hurt someone (out of revenge, to get attention, or for what ever reason) they'll find a way to do it gun or no gun.

As for the President and his private life--I feel that's a sacrifice one makes to be in a spot light. Regardless how unfair it seems to be, he is in the public view and he does influence others. Immoral behavior is not a good example for our youth. How can one preach family values and behave the opposite?

I personally feel like people want to treat the symptoms and ignore the disease. We can look at the killings and say throw out the guns, but the feelings, the emotional state of these people will remain the same. I do feel that all of these contribute to each other--they are intertwined.

Something I found interesting in my night class. We were discussing the book The Giver by Lois Lowry. It's about a uptopian community where everything is decided for the people --choice has virtually been taken away. In the story they 'release' people for breaking the rules, being too old, or a baby that is too hard to take care of or an inconvenience (example a set of twins were born and the smallest was 'released' because it would upset the balance of population control). Release was a term they used for killing with lethal injection. The reaction from the class when discussing this is how awful the idea of release is, and how awful this community is. The instructor pointed out how similar that line of thinking is in our society today already and we accept it. She further said you either find it upsetting because you're upset about today's society, or you subconsciously realize the connection to our society and your reasoning that it's okay doesn't make as much sense now.

A final note, I think in the areas of abortion and gun control people from each side generally agree (abortion is a tragedy--crimes with guns are tragedies). The problem is how to correct the problem. Neither side wants to compromise because it may just be a matter of time before the extremists (or either side) completely take over.

Okay it's getting late, that probably didn't make sense.

That's JMO.

[Amy2]

Hannah, I see that you are a "newbie" so I invite you to go back and look at the thread "What is Religion?" for some different perspectives on God and Religion.

As to the films/songs/television. I totally disagree with censorship. This is America, and people have gone to war to hold fast to our freedom of speech. That said, I think that it is irresponsible not to protect children from inappropriate material. NO ONE under sixteen should be allowed in an R rated movie (if this is the age limit.) Parents should not be able to accompany their six year old into an R rated movie. Children should not be allowed to buy restricted material. But to censor their manufacture is wrong in my opinion. My children aren't allowed to watch network television. On a rare occasion we will watch something together, but not very often. That is our choice/responsibility as parents. But WE watch it. I saw that show The Job the other night and found it very funny. Not for everyone, but so what? Because one person may find it offensive, that doesn't mean everyone will.

Child pornography is illegal, disgusting, and sick. They must be stopped. I wish I had an answer as to how, but I don't.

I think it's naive to think that if children sat in schools and prayed that all violence would stop. If you look at the profiles of the school shooters, they mostly came from white, middle class, Christian homes. Jeffrey Dahmer came from a Christian home. I'm not blaming the Christianity, I'm just saying that that in itself is not the answer.

Gun control. Yes. Absolutely. No brainer. Look at the other countries without our access to guns. Their gun related crime rates are mere fractions of ours. I was speaking to some Japanese women about the children in Japan and I asked why they were so much less violent than American children. They said that they ARE as violent, they just don't have access to the weapons that we have here! Someone said "if a child wants a gun they can just go get one" THAT is what I am talking about. Eliminate the access to the guns.

Whew. Too heavy for so late at night!

[AnnW]

Amy..totally agree with you on this one! :)

[Mickey]

I agree with all that Amy wrote, too.

Religion doesn't belong in public schools and I have found that those who adamantly believe it does, actually only believe that THEIR religion belongs in schools. They would have a fit if a religion other than THEIRS were taught to their children.

Censorship isn't the answer, but I agree that sensible ratings and strict enforcement is definitely necessary--for movies, music and reading materials. "Restricted" means "no one under 17 admitted without parent or guardian" but it should be changed to "No one under 17 admitted." Also, did you know that the enforcement of these ratings is strictly voluntary? I think it should be the law.

And the gun issue is definitely a no-brainer--if you don't have access to a gun, you can't shoot anyone. Period.

I heard an interesting statistic on a t.v. show--they said that a gun in the home is 40 times more likely to kill a family member or friend than an intruder. Also, The presence of a gun in the home triples the risk of homicide in the home.

Regarding spanking...I don't think spanking is the answer--it's more a problem, imho. And as far as other people physically disciplining my child goes--NO WAY!

Regarding violence in schools...while I do think that access to guns is a contributing factor, I believe that a bigger issue is lack of parental involvement in children's lives. There has been a swing back to having one parent at home and I think that is wonderful and very important.

Too many parents are into their careers and obtaining "things" for their kids when what the kids need more than anything is their time.

Another interesting statistic I've heard is that most teenage girls get pregnant in their own homes between the hours of 3 and 6 p.m. That would be kind of hard to do if your mother or father were home, don't you think?

[kat]

I believe that a bigger issue is lack of parental involvement in children's lives. There has been a swing back to having one parent at home and I think that is wonderful and very important.

Too many parents are into their careers and obtaining "things" for their kids when what the kids need more than anything is their time.

Mickey, Bingo. You've nailed it IMHO! I fell into that trap as well, even justifying it by saying that at least I had the same hours as my kids (teaching), but I could have done so much more and been so much fresher when they got home without the added responsibility of a job. We have several young women at our church and some at my school who all have college degrees, but have put their careers on hold to raise their children. We are losing 2 fine teachers this year so they can be SAHM's. While I hate losing them, I've made a point of telling them that it's the best decision they'll ever make.

Kid's need a parent who is free to be a full time 100% committed parent. No disrespect to working mom's (I'm one and love my job), but you will be more effective if that is your top priority! You can say all you want that you can manage both home and career with equal effectiveness, but I just don't think you really can. I know I can't, my kids don't always get my best and that's a shame. Alot of kids out there aren't getting anything though.

[Lynda/WA]

I agree with Linda/NE straight down the line. I'm going to seperate a couple of these indiviual topics out as new threads rather than refer to all under this thread. I do think that the problems in our schools reflect the problems we are having in society as a whole. I don't see new restrictions (ie gun control) making things better since I feel the main problems are lack of respect for others and their belongings, a belief in the ends justifies the means (lie cheat and steal to get what YOU want), and a feeling that the individual is more important than the group.

We tell children they aren't reponsible for for their behavior if they didn't realize the results would hurt someone else (ie the thread where the children destroyed a sidewalk. Many felt the parents should suffer alone not the child). We show children it's ok to lie if its for *a good reason* For example say the child is younger to get a cheaper ticket. Or saying it was OK for the president to lie to the country if you think he had a reason. The number of High schoolers that cheat on tests has increased. I think it's because we have shown them the ends justifies the means. If good grades get you into a good college then its ok to cheat. If the child is failing at school than it has to be someone elses fault. The school isn't teaching them. It *can't* be a case of the child doesn't want to bother to do their homework!

BTW, I have also had friends from Japan and other foreign countries. I and my DH have lived in foreign countries as well as visited others. There is a BIG difference in hearing from friends, visiting, and living in other cultures. For that matter there is a HUGE difference in different areas of the US alone. I have heard (and seen) the exact opposite as someone else stated. They have more respect for other people (In general but varies on the situation). That is relfected in their lower CRIME rates overall not just their lower gun death rates. When a child was shoved down the scool stairs in France they convened meetings country wide to address the problems of violence in schools. Here that doesn't even make the papers. The number one weapon used in schools is a club and I can't remember ever hearing a story about that. An OR school recently had a grenade brought to school. It didn't even make the national news that I heard. In Japan a mother killed a preschooler because she felt that would get her own daughter into the *right* preschool. Shades or our own *Texas Cheerleader* killing? The comment was made in France (when child pushed down stairs) that America's school violence is spreading. Anytime we are going to compare outselves as a country to other countries we need to look at the big picture and not just one area. There are so many factors that contribute to violence and what kind. These factors vary from country to country.
Here, in Washington, there is legislation to prevent school bullying. I don't think it will help a bit. Just create more red tape.