Selfish or Admirable?

[Amy]

There was a front page article in my newspaper today about teenage pregnancies. It showed different perspectives.

The first perspective is that the teenagers that kept their babies were to be admired because they are owning up to their mistakes and trying to keep up with school. The statics were stacked against them. Only 1 percent make it passed high school or a GED. Many end up on welfare or rely very heavily on their families for support and financial help.

The flip side showed the kids who decided on adoption. As much as they would like to keep their children, they acknowledge that it was a mistake to have children this time in their life and that they needed to be more mature and financially stable to provide a decent and good life for the baby. They all say they have open adoptions with the adoptive parents and are kept abreast of their milestones with emails, letters and pictures. Many have visitations also.

This article didn't go into abortions, so I won't either.

We know Ann is a wonderful adoptive mother and many of you are adopted and were placed in wonderful homes, but what do the rest think?

[AnnW]

gee..thanks !!!!

I can give ds' birthmother's side. She had a super support system and wouldn't have been "alone". The birthfather was in her life, but they weren't married and didn't feel a shot gun wedding would be beneficial to the baby. She felt that it would have been unfair to deny her child two parents just because she was biologically related to him.

[Amy]

Originally posted by AnnW
gee..thanks !!!!

I can give ds' birthmother's side. She had a super support system and wouldn't have been "alone". The birthfather was in her life, but they weren't married and didn't feel a shot gun wedding would be beneficial to the baby. She felt that it would have been unfair to deny her child two parents just because she was biologically related to him.

Your ds's birthmother's point of view really shocked me! Most people would have kept the baby under those favorable conditions. What a priority she had for her baby to grow up in a two parent household. Really amazing!

I never even answered my own question! LOL

Of course I think adoptin is amazing and very unselfish of the mother to put the baby's needs in front of their own. But then I put myself in that position and it gets harder. I was deathly afraid of pregnancy when I was a teenager. I knew I had a lot of play years ahead of me and the thought of having a baby literally scared me straight. I refused to have sex until I was 19 and then I was on birthcontrol and he had a condom. LOL It wasn't until I was 21 that I ever had unprotected sex and thought I could be preggers. I was still scared beyond death, but I already had an education even though the Father wouldn't have been in my life (he was more scared than I was! LOL). Ironically, when I told my Mom, she said to put it up for adoption. She had my oldest sister when she was 22 and single and kept her. Back in the 50's it was very frowned upon to be an unwed mother. She got married to my Dad and had three more children, but my sister suffered greatly from being the "different" one. My sister tells me now she wished my Mom put her up for adoption. That would have given her a chance to be TRULY wanted and not always perceiving yourslf as a mistake.

BTW--I never WAS pregnant. I had a stress related delay in my period. Can't say what my ultimate decision would be though. My own selfishness would have kept the baby in a heartbeat because I loved kids, but truly doing right for the baby and not myself, I would have to consider what my sister and my Mom said.

[AnnW]

Originally posted by Amy/CO
Your ds's birthmother's point of view really shocked me! Most people would have kept the baby under those favorable conditions. What a priority she had for her baby to grow up in a two parent household. Really amazing!



She really is quite amazing! I am not sure I could have been so admirable.

[RCT]

What a great thread.

I think it would take great courage to place a child up for adoption. Its a forever situation. Not every Adoptee/Birth Parent reuintes. IMHO Selfish or not, most people choose to keep the child.

[Mickey]

As a 40 yo (ahem!) married mom, I can sit here and say that it would definitely be best for the child to be adopted into a 2-parent home instead of being passed around to different family members while a young girl struggles to grow up herself.

That said, I really don't know if I could do it had I been in that situation. I know it's selfish to keep a baby no matter what, but I don't know if I could ever give up a child. I'm not sure the open adoptions are all that great for the child either (open to the point of visitation, that is) and who's to say that the couple who adopts the baby won't divorce two years later and the child would be in a one-parent struggling home anyway? I honestly don't know if I could have given a child up. Even if I were young and struggling. I know that is selfish, but I really don't know that I could do it. I would justify it by trying to convince myself that the love I have would be enough and my family would help and how I would KNOW the child wouldn't be abused in my care, etc.

So...while I'm not in the situation myself and never have been, I can sit here at my computer in middle-suburbia, USA and say what would be the "right" thing to do, but until I was actually in the situation myself, I couldn't say what I would actually do.

[PamE]

My perspective seems to be a bit different. Selfish or admirable depends on what is in the parent's heart.

Keep the baby to have someone to love you and to show off and *prove* you can handle it all or give him up for adoption because you don't want to be saddled with a kid! To me those reasons are selfish.

Keep the baby because you love her and are committed to giving her the best life you possibly can or give her up for adoption because you love her and know that you are not in a position to properly care for her. Those reasons, to me, are admirable.

[Mickey]

Excellent points, Pam! And I agree that while the outcome might be favorable to the child, the actual reason for giving the child up for adoption may or may not be considered admirable or selfish...depending what's in the heart.

I agree with Amy, too, in that I am surprised the birth mother of Ann's child was in such a favorable situation and didn't choose to keep the baby. Did she end up marrying the father and having more children, Ann?

[Mickey]

Originally posted by Amy/CO
Y...BTW--I never WAS pregnant. I had a stress related delay in my period.

That happened to me! I had a scare while on bc pills. I had broken up with my fiancé of 2 years and the stress caused my period to be two weeks late. I went to my ob/gyn and he told me that I definitely was NOT pregnant and I started later that day. WHEW! I can't tell you what all went through my mind. Me, struggling with school and a baby, living with my parents, him and his new girlfriend picking up my child for the weekend. Ugh! I'm SO glad I didn't have to make such a difficult decision!

[AnnW]

Originally posted by Mickey
I agree with Amy, too, in that I am surprised the birth mother of Ann's child was in such a favorable situation and didn't choose to keep the baby. Did she end up marrying the father and having more children, Ann?

No, she has never married or had any more children.

[Mickey]

Originally posted by AnnW
No, she has never married or had any more children.

Wow...so she must have known it wasn't the favorable situation it appeared to be.

[AnnW]

No. I think she would like to get married. It just never happened.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by PamE
My perspective seems to be a bit different. Selfish or admirable depends on what is in the parent's heart.

Keep the baby to have someone to love you and to show off and *prove* you can handle it all or give him up for adoption because you don't want to be saddled with a kid! To me those reasons are selfish.

Keep the baby because you love her and are committed to giving her the best life you possibly can or give her up for adoption because you love her and know that you are not in a position to properly care for her. Those reasons, to me, are admirable.

I've been thinking all day how to put it and you've done it nicely.



Here's a twist for you. Lets say instead of a 14 year old child its a married couple who already have all the children they want...

[aztec_judy]

I have given this much thought all day today. And its hard to say which would be good or bad.
I know that many end up with great parents.
I know that many also end up with bad parents.

I will not go into details; but I gave my twin boys up for adoption, for a number of reasons.
But the main one I had no one to turn to, nor anyone to help me.
Besides not having a high school diploma, nor a ged.
I didnt' know that I was carrying twins til their birth.
In one way I have regretted it, because of different things, since then.
But, they are happy, (yes, I have seen them a couple of times since).
But it is something that is very hard to choose to do.
And it is something that only time will help to heal, but it will always be painful.

I need to run for the lightening has started now. And it is getting closer.
see yaa...

[PamE]

Here's a twist for you. Lets say instead of a 14 year old child its a married couple who already have all the children they want... (I've never been able to figure out how to quote properly... sorry)

I would have a problem with that!!! Can you imagine the reaction/feelings of the siblings to watch their mother go through pregnancy and then to see their parents give this child away because they already have "enough"! Wondering if they'd be next? 8o To me it would be the same as telling your 8yo that you decided you didn't want children anymore and putting her up for adoption!

Can you imagine the self-esteem issues this child would have finding out why they were put up for adoption??? I don't know of a single adopted child who did not at one point in time or another wonder why they were "really" put up for adoption.

I guess I can't give specific reasons for the distinction in my feelings between an unmarried mother giving up her child and a set of parents with other children putting theirs up for adoption but the thought leaves a bad taste in my mouth. :\ I know all adoption stories are different and there no way to know absolutely all circumstances involved but I can't see how this could be justified.

[Mickey]

Originally posted by Jeff
...Here's a twist for you. Lets say instead of a 14 year old child its a married couple who already have all the children they want...

I saw an adoption story on TLC and the birth parents were married and had four children and didn't have the resources or desire to raise another so decided to give the baby up for adoption.

I honestly couldn't do that if I were in their situation--you already have four and how do you explain to the other children where their little brother or sister went? If you're truthful, I'm sure it would instill a fear in them that they might be "given away" one day, too.

That said, if a child truly isn't wanted, then it's better off with a couple who wants him/her.

[PamE]

{{{Judy}}} I've seen the regret my birth mother still has over giving me up for adoption and I know it can't be an easy thing to live with.

[Leigh]

Pam said best what I would have liked to put into words about whether adoption/ keeping your child is selfish or admirable.

Being an adoptive child myself, I know that I do wonder what the "real" reason for my adoption was. Mine was a total closed adoption, and I have no idea what the reason was or who my biological parents are. I do sometimes wish that I knew more, but I am glad that I grew up in a very loving family that I knew wanted me more than anything.

I would however like to know one day who my biological parents are for medical reasons if for nothing else. I have kept my adoption file up to date, but my biological parents have not. I think that even if you put the child up for adoption, you should at least keep the medical records up to date. I have had several stomach ailments that the doctors think are biologically related, but we will never know because I don't have a medical history. It is also scary thinking about having a child and only have one side of medical history on him/her.

This is all just my honest opinion mind you.

[aztec_judy]

PamE,
Thanks. And your right its not easy. The pain lessons with time, but its still very hard.
I, too, am adopted, and have often wondered "why". I finally did get my birth certificate, and have learned who my bio- parents are. But have learned that there were 3 older siblings they had also. So that also causes me to wonder "why" ??
I was lucky in being able to have my request for mine go before a judge that had also been adopted; and whom believed that adopties have the right to know.
But with finding out what I have, it has opened many more questions up, as to the why's ...

So I know it can be hard on both sides of the coin, depending on circumstances. But I don't know if I will ever really go any further with my own search. Not sure I want to know the answer to the questions anymore.

I can say that I am very "Grateful" for the husband I have right now. For he has been very supportive of me, and I have learned many things and have had a wonderful beautiful life these last 20 yrs with him.

[Melody]

I have never been in either situation myself so I can only speak of what I have seen and being a mother now and not as a teenager.
When I was a teenager I had more than a few friends get pregnant. And a couple of girls I didn't know well. Of what I seen then and how they are now, I can say that most of those children should have been placed for adoption. This is jmo. But these girls did not have their priorities straight and were terrible mothers whose main interest was still going to parties and seen these kids as burdens. It was very sad. Only one girl, one I would talk to on occasion but not close with, had chosen adoption. She told me that she got to pick the parents, she would be able to find out how the baby was doing (I am assuming it was an open adoption). She wasn't done school, had problems with the father and didn't feel she could raise the baby the way she wanted. I thought she was doing a great thing and I do remember wondering why more of my friends didn't do this too. It seemed to be more of a "I can so do this, it's MY baby" attitude than anything else with these girls. They all went on to have more kids by different fathers and the first years of these young lives were total chaos. My best friend was pushed into a marriage with a lousy, abusive, neglective guy even though my own mother tried to talk her out of it. They were soon divorced. I am so glad that I did not chose the path of my friends and get pregnant at a young age but to be honest I am sure I would have kept my child too. But I also know that I would not have gotten married, there's no way my parents would have allowed it and I am pretty sure I would have kept myself out of relationships for a while too. I know my mom would have pushed me to go to school and not get married. But that wasn't the case for some.

[Linda/NE]

I see this from yet another prespective. I haven't told you about this before mainly because I feared you would look negatively upon my dh and me.

My dh has 2 kids from other relationships. This was all before I knew him. The first situation had to do with an older step sister and was actually a case of statutory rape but since it's the girl that was older her mother doesn't see it that way. The second situation, I truly believe, happened because of the negative influence this step sister had on dh. When I met dh he was very warped in his thinking about love and relationships. It took a LONG time before I could make him understand the difference between the love and sex.

Anyway with both kids dh wanted them put up for adoption. The mothers accused him of just wanting to take the easy way out. He honestly knew that he was not ready (financially or emotionally) to raise a child, Neither mother was ready either and that a marriage/long term relationship with the mothers would not work. He was thinking of what was best for the child. The mothers refused to put it up for adoption. He gave the first mother money when she asked but she only used it for alcohol, cigarettes, or something for herself so he stopped.

The second mother made it very clear that she wanted him to have nothing to do with the child if he wasn't going to stay with her. All either mother wanted from dh was his money.

Both mothers became pregnant again within 2 years and kept another child they could not afford. They both became pregnant yet again in the next couple years, ended up marrying that father and those men were abusive.

dh respected the mothers' wishes by staying out of the children's lives. He was upfront with me about all of this and we based our marriage and family on this. Our kids know nothing about this. A couple months ago one of these kids called up dh. He's met with him once and talked to him on the phone. I want dh to end the relationship and tell our kids nothing. dh wants to tell the kids and keep the relationship going. I don't trust the kid and can't help but feel that the mother is putting the kid up to this so she can find out if we're hiding money from her or something.

I know this sounds really heartless when it comes to thinking about these kids. I feel for the kids wanting to know their birth parents and all, but the sucky part of this whole thing is that MY kids and I didn't do anything wrong either. As I see it we're the ones that stand to lose the most or have our lives upset the greatest. Finding birth parents and reconciling provides healing for the birth parents and closure for the child, but it just opens a door of great hurt and emotional upheaval for us innocent bystanders. I can't help but feel that our lives shouldn't have to be upset for their benefit. I know this sounds totally horrible, but I feel that dh should cut all ties with this kid and if he ends up an emotional mess the mother should have to deal with it. In my opinion this whole mess is her fault. They may have acted together to conceive the child but she made all the decisions from that point on and she should have to deal with all the consequences. It's not fair that she should get to call the shots and have all the control in this situation.
You probably all remember my opinions concerning father's rights. Now you know why.
I've been dealing with this for the past few months in addition to the long hours of the job, our personal financial struggles, just recently his injury on the job. I'm an emotional mess which is a very big reason I haven't been posting lately. I know I am very bitter about this topic. I'm sure this hasn't really helped anyone in their investigation of this topic. The bottom line is EVERY situation is different and outsiders can't judge what is selfish and admirable. I was ridiculed for my belief in abstinence before marriage, but there would be so much less hurt in this world if more people would abstain.

Sorry if I offended anyone--this is just my personal opinion.

[Mickey]

Wow, Linda. That's a lot going on for you. I can see how you would feel very protective of your children. And I agree that they shouldn't know...not yet, anyway.

However, you did know about these kids before you married and had a family with your dh and I can't help but ask...didn't the thought ever cross your mind that these kids might one day want to be in his life or get to know him?

[aztec_judy]

Linda/NE, I am very sorry that has & is happening to you and yours. I know that its hard no matter what the situation was that has caused things to happen.
I will say that is part of why I had not really pressed the issue of looking up my own birth parents. And upon finding out that mine was a sealed adoption also stopped me for years, too. But even today, I am still afraid to try.
I was 14 when I found out that I was adopted. By this time my adopted parents had been divorced for 6 yrs. They were not loving adopted parents. My adopted "dad" rejected me for not being his own blood, as I was too find out later. My adopted "mom" was a cold hearted cruel woman. And nothing I did was ever good enough nor correct.
A parent can either make or break a childs spirit, depending on how they treat the child. I had learned to be the "class clown" for a good many years, no one ever knew of the abuse that was in our house. For I had been thru both verbal & physical abuse from mainly her. So if they, my adopted parents, were like this, then why shouldn't my real parents be this way too???
I just recently (in 1997) finally had the guts to even get my "real" birth certificate. And being born in TX, it has on there the Parents full name, their birth dates, and it ask the question: "How many live births" thats how come I know there were/is 3 siblings older than me.
Yet, because of the fear of rejection, or them feeling the way you do, I still have only gotten this far. I finally did a search on the net, there is a person with my "real" fathers name that died back in 1975, so if that was him then I shall never know him. I wonder if my "real" mother is living?? If I was to find my "real" siblings what would their reaction be ??
There were/are soo many questions that went thru my mind.
How would they feel?? After all these years would they want or NOT want to meet me?? Would I be accepted or rejected??
There are many questions & reasons that could be there.
And when you married your spouse, you also married his children, whether they be with ya'll or not.
So yes, maybe the mother is putting this child up to see if ya'll are "hiding" money ?? Then again maybe the child is hopeing for someone to accept it as is?? Maybe the child in one way is looking for the "love" it might not be receiving now ??
Yes, there are many things to contend with. Yes, you have a right to feel as you do. For this makes it very hard on you, very hard. Yet, maybe your love could also help to change the negativeness this child might also be feeling/living in.
But this my own opinion also, for no matter the circumstances it is hard and painful for all involved.
This is my 3rd husband: I am "grateful" for my husband, for he has helped me to see the difference in many things. And yes, it does take years to "learn" the difference between : love & sex. Which today I am happy to know that, and it has taken alot of patience on his part, but I have finally learned how to be loving, compassionate, caring and trusting in many ways now. He has also helped in helping me to be more forgiving of and letting go of a hard, bitter, resentful person that I was/had been, because of many things that were happening. But it was a long hard road to travel. And I fully believe that God put him in my life to show me that there is a different side to life. Maybe that is what is happening to you also, for this child to be coming into your life now. Maybe your love can help the child to see things differently also, but it will be another hard road to travel for you.

my prayers for you and yours, things will work out. Keep your chin up, ok?

[aztec_judy]

Leigh, upon receiving my birth certificate, I found that that was all that was in the records. Nothing else was there. So the only medical records that I have is what I have gone thru myself.
I found out that the hospital where I was born, had a fire and everything was lost in that fire. So there is no checking that out. But it would be nice to have "known" something of the medical history. But don't count on it being on file, for it might not be.
But, the way I ended up getting mine (bc, that is), I did a lot of reading over the net about different places that help you do this. And there was a lady that helped me, she knew that this one judge that was retireing was also adopted and believed that adoptees had a right to know. But she told me I had to send in the request and she sent me the form to send in.
Otherwise, I might still "NOT" know nor have my certificate today.
But I know it opened up another line of questions for me. That is another reason I have not gone any further either.

[Amy]

Linda--I really feel for you. I know your life hasn't quite settled down like you hoped it would with the daycare business. This child coming into your life at this time is probably overwhelming to you and you are wondering how much more can you take. ((((hugs)))))

But.....Since you knew about this from day one, I would also think that you would know this was going to happen sooner or later. The only innocent parties in this is the child and your children. Neither had any choice in the decisions that the adults made.

This reminds me of yet another flip side of the coin. Think about DianeP's dh and how jealous/uncomfortable his stepdad is towards him. That has prevented/stalled a warm relationship with his birthmom (sorry Diane for telling YOUR story-lol). The rejection can even harm a grown man with a family of his own! Think about a child and how that is going to shape his future.

[AnnW]

((((Linda))) Yep, there are many sides to the coin. Of course, my situation is different in that I am an adoptive mom and you are a step mom, but recently we met ds' birthmother and it was absolutely the most wonderful thing and most sane thing that I have ever done!!! DS enjoyed meeting her too, but said it was more "like meeting a cousin that you like but really don't see all that much!" LOL
I wouldn't think that these children are after money seeing that the mother's never sought child support all these years. I can imagine it's more out of curiosity and perhaps wanting to have a stable father figure in their lives since you said that they never really had one.
Please feel free to vent here anytime. That's what we are here for.

[BevJ]

This sure is interesting reads, but I really have no experience in dealing with this first hand. I only knew two girls growing up who were adopted. I knew of two girls in highschool that had babies and kept them, but they had wonderful support at home, and one had the father figure in the child's life all through highschool.

I have 5 siblings. My two oldest sisters do not have the same father as the other 4 of us. When my mom met my dad, she was already married and her dh was overseas. My mom fell in love with my dad, but he would not break up a marriage. When my mom's dh came home she had two girls. When the youngest was only a few months old, my mom's dh died. My dad heard of this and came for my mom. He raised my oldest sisters as his own. My sisters have never, ever wondered about their father, nor wondered who his family was (apparently he was adopted himself). I have more questions and curiosity than they do.

Two of my sister's were pregnant at 16. Both married the father's and had 2-3 more children. Both marriages had abuse and ended in divorce. In those days (early sixties, seventies), the "kids" got married. My mom's greatest fear after that was wondering if the same thing would happen to the rest of her girls. It sure was an eye opener for me.

As mentioned before, there are two sides to the coin. I can see both sides. I have opinions, but after reading other opinions, mine flip to the other side. It's hard being a Libra, because everything has to balance with me, even my opinions, lol.

Obviously I've posted nothing to add to this debate, but it felt good to type this all out.

[Fern]

AnnW - just a curiousity question, i know that you have mentioned that your children's adoptions are open, what exactly does that mean, for you and for the birth mother.

Also did your ds ask to meet his birth mother or was she the one wanting to see him?
Does dd want to meet her birth mother?

I was 32 when I began my search and found my birth mother, she was so fantastic, I was so scared approaching her the first time and her response was "I knew you'd find me some day".
We talk every couple of months, she's a nice friend to have in my life.

[AnnW]

Originally posted by Fern
AnnW - just a curiousity question, i know that you have mentioned that your children's adoptions are open, what exactly does that mean, for you and for the birth mother.

Also did your ds ask to meet his birth mother or was she the one wanting to see him?
Does dd want to meet her birth mother?

I was 32 when I began my search and found my birth mother, she was so fantastic, I was so scared approaching her the first time and her response was "I knew you'd find me some day".
We talk every couple of months, she's a nice friend to have in my life.


I didn't realize you are an adoptee? Did that play any role in your dd's decision to keep her baby?

There are varying degrees of openess. With ds, it just meant that we knew each other's first names, medical histories, biographies. By law in the state of Texas, the adoptive parents must right a letter each month for the first 6 months to the birthmother via the agency updating on how the baby is doing. We just kept writing to each other, but lost contact around age 4. About 9 or so he became very curious about her and wrote a letter asking for more info. She wrote him a wonderful letter explaining her decision. We then lost contast again. About a year or so ago we "found" each other. She and I have been emailing. She was here for business and we decided to meet. DH and I discussed that IF after meeting her and we felt comfortable, we would ask her if she wanted to meet with ds, but understanding that he had the right to say no and would she be able to handle this. DS wanted to so we all met...this was actually all in one night. Like I said it was probably the most wonderful thing I have ever done.
DD's birthmother wanted to meet us before placement. For various reasons that didn't happen, but we met after we had dd for a week. That has been the only contact we have had. She chose not to pick up her letters. I worry for dd that she doesn't have any "relationship" with her birthmother and there is one with ds'.
I feel in no way threatened by her. She has always been very clear that I am ds' mother. She gave me flowers for mother's day!! I got tickled cause she even told a friend that she was meeting "her son's mother". I have always told her how terribly grateful I am to her for the choice she made and for giving me one of the most amazing gifts one person can give another.

[PamE]

My adoption story is a bit different and I have mixed feelings about now having contact with my birth family.

My birth mother was divorced from her husband and had custody of their 6yods. I was the result of a relationship that she will not speak of.

Premature babies didn't have a very good chance of survival 35 years ago. The doctor who delivered me two months before the due date told my birth mother to make funeral preparations and put me in a corner to die. When I was still alive the next morning he decided maybe he should transport me to a hospital that could take care of me. So I went by ambulance to the KU med center where they put me in an incubator with IV's, etc.

My birth mother had no thoughts of giving me up for adoption at all. Somehow though the ambulance bill got sent to her ex-husband. When he found out about me he was furious and told her if she didn't give me up he would take their son. She believed his threats and at first tried to get her sister to take me. That didn't work out for some reason and she found out about my parents through a mutual friend. Mom and Dad came to the hospital to get me and refused all medical information. Mom was extremely paranoid and wanted nothing to do with them or anything about them (she now regrets refusing the medical info). A few days later my aunt showed up at the door, wanting to see me, saying she was thinking maybe it was best for her to take me in after all. Somehow, by the time she left, Mom had convinced her that I was where I belonged and the adoption was finalized two months later.

I always knew I was adopted and had all the usual questions and fantasies about my birth parents, lol! I had talked about contacting my birth family with dh for a few years after we were married but never followed through. About ten years ago dh took it into his own hands and contacted them without telling me. For Christmas he gave me a packet with information, letters and pictures from my birth family. It took quite a while to absorb and was a real sore spot with my Mom for quite a while. I would be fine with just an occasional letter or phone call but my family wants much more than that. My brother is very upset that I don't want to meet and don't want a "normal" relationship with everyone. If I had to do it over again I don't know that I'd be so anxious to make contact. I still know nothing about my birth father as my birth mother has told me in no uncertain terms that she will never give me that information. It's not been a terrible thing, having contact, but it has been stressfull at times.

[AnnW]

Pam, your brother is angry with you cause you don't want more contact with your birth mother?? How interesting. Usually it's the opposite way.

[Diane]

In most cases when you're adopted, it's more of a want/need to meet the person who made you who you are. In dh's case he was very reluctant to look for his birth mother because he was afraid of opening Pandora's Box, and basically not being wanted or being rejected, which would have been a very difficult thing for him to accept. Part of his fear also came from a really bad relationship he had with his adopted family, especially his dad. I don't think that dh ever felt that he was the child they really wanted. His dad threw his being adopted up in his face once too many times. 8o

It was also weird for dh growing up in a family who all has features that look alike, and he was the only one who looked different. All of his friends and their mothers/fathers all looked SO MUCH alike. He always felt bad growing up without that. When he met his birth mother and his sisters, he felt that a piece of him that he didn't even know was missing had been replaced... When he looks at his mom and sister's, he sees a little bit of himself looking back. His biological father passed away in a car accident about 9 months after he was born. We got to see pictures of him and dh's the spitting image of him. Dh has talked with some of his bio dad's brothers... but so far have never met any of them. I understand that dh looks a lot like that side of the family. LOL

They were able to answer so many questions he had... one being about the day he was born, which was something he had always wondered about. They gave him his birth certificate along with many baby pictures... (he’d never seen what he looked like as a baby) that he never would have had the opportunity to see if he had not met them.

Dh never once considered this family to be a "new" family for himself. His adoptive parents were and always will be considered his "real" parents. He has no "history" with his biological mother/family... so doesn't necessarily feel that close to them. I think he loves her... but it's not like the love he felt for his real mother.

Dh was also able to meet so many other relatives from his biological mother‘s family... aunt's, uncles, as well as many cousin's. They are all fantastic people. It was nice for dh to feel the love of people who had been wondering about him since he'd been let go. In many ways, the meeting of dh's birth family was a comfort to him and it ended years of wondering just who he was.

I am sure that your dh's son is not out to find a new family or to see what he can "get" from you. There is something to be said about needing to know these things... dh is a MUCH better person today than he was before he met his biological mother.

As time goes on and if you take it slowly and work through feelings as they come up, everything starts to feel more natural. I hope everything works out okay for you all...

[Fern]

Meeting my birth mother was like Diane said with her dh, it's filling in a missing piece. I never looked like anyone in my family, when my parents adopted me they were told i would probably be a big girl, they thought that was fine, they didn't realize it was big as in heavy, not tall!! My children look like me, but I always wanted to see if I looked like anyone else, I do, and it felt so good.

Linda how old is your dh's son?

AnnW - no, my being adopted had nothing to do with dd's decision, being a mom is what she is meant to do in life, we all know it would have been better a few years down the road, but I don't think emotionally she could give up a child, that she knows will be loved by her and it's daddy and she also knows that she has so much family support if she needs it. On the other hand if she had decided to give it up, I probably would have had a hard time with it, even though I know how much adoption fills the emptness of a childless couple, it can also leave an emptyness in a child.

[PamE]

Pam, your brother is angry with you cause you don't want more contact with your birth mother?? How interesting. Usually it's the opposite way.
That's true! I think it's because she gave me up so unwillingly that he feels differently. Like Diane's dh, my adoptive parents are Mom and Dad and always will be. My birth mother is more understanding of my viewpoint and knows that she will never replace my Mom. He's just not ready to accept that and has "threatened" to show up on my doorstep.

[Diane]

Originally posted by Amy/CO
This reminds me of yet another flip side of the coin. Think about DianeP's dh and how jealous/uncomfortable his stepdad is towards him. That has prevented/stalled a warm relationship with his birthmom (sorry Diane for telling YOUR story-lol). The rejection can even harm a grown man with a family of his own! Think about a child and how that is going to shape his future.

I can't tell you how hurt dh was... and it was all totally because of her dh's jealousy. (he didn't want to share his wife with anyone, or for her to love/care about anyone but him and their two children...) She did what he wanted... and that lasted for 3 long years.

I don't know what happened to change his mind (guilt??) but one day we got an e-mail from him apologizing, and asking Doug if he would consider calling his mom and maybe they could start over again. That was only a few short months ago. Were taking it VERY slow this time... were not going to jump in and get as close/involved with them as we did the first time. Dh and I decided together that this was going to be the last time we tried... and if he (her dh) started having issues again, we'd quietly turn around and walk away. It's just not worth all the hurt it caused.

I guess this is why I kind of feel for Linda's dh's son. I can totally see where Linda is coming from... and I don't blame her for wanting to be careful, but her dh's son and my dh are pretty much in the same boat, except in this case it's the son looking for and wanting a relationship with his father. Like Verle, Linda's having issues. What made it hard was that we knew that his biological mother really wanted this relationship... but her hands were tied. We know she really resented him a lot for not allowing it... and I think that is probably what finally changed his mind.

Every family is different though... I know we weren't the only ones who felt the hurt... what happened (him meeting his biological mom) totally changed our lives. What works for some may not work for others. Dh's side of the family knows that we don't want/expect anything from them, and we made that perfectly clear right from the beginning. Legally, Dh is no longer her son... and she is no longer his mother. We owe each other... nothing.

Please keep us updated Linda.. (((((HUGS))))) I'm so sorry you're having to go through this. I know it isn't easy...

[AnnW]

Originally posted by PamE
That's true! I think it's because she gave me up so unwillingly that he feels differently. Like Diane's dh, my adoptive parents are Mom and Dad and always will be. My birth mother is more understanding of my viewpoint and knows that she will never replace my Mom. He's just not ready to accept that and has "threatened" to show up on my doorstep.

OK..now I am confused. Is this the brother you grew up with or a birth brother??

[AnnW]

Originally posted by Fern
On the other hand if she had decided to give it up, I probably would have had a hard time with it, even though I know how much adoption fills the emptness of a childless couple, it can also leave an emptyness in a child.

That's why I try to so hard to make sure my children's questions are anwered. I don't want them to feel empty.

[Fern]

Originally posted by AnnW
That's why I try to so hard to make sure my children's questions are anwered. I don't want them to feel empty.

Well, from what I have read from you in the years I have been coming to the idea box I think you are doing a wonderful job with your children and their questions. Growing up I knew I was adopted, but it was a very hard subject to discuss, not much was ever said. I was in my 30's before my mom and I ever really had a conversation about the things I wanted to know.

[AnnW]

Originally posted by Fern
Well, from what I have read from you in the years I have been coming to the idea box I think you are doing a wonderful job with your children and their questions. Growing up I knew I was adopted, but it was a very hard subject to discuss, not much was ever said. I was in my 30's before my mom and I ever really had a conversation about the things I wanted to know.


Thanks. That really means alot. I don't want them ever to feel like that there is something wrong about being adopted. I have always talked about families come in all different ways.
I really appreciate your kind words.

[Linda/NE]

Originally posted by Mickey
Wow, Linda. That's a lot going on for you. I can see how you would feel very protective of your children. And I agree that they shouldn't know...not yet, anyway.

However, you did know about these kids before you married and had a family with your dh and I can't help but ask...didn't the thought ever cross your mind that these kids might one day want to be in his life or get to know him?

Yes, I did fear this. This has been one of my greatest fears. But the mothers made a big issue over having things their way and he respected that. In return they should have respected dh and consulted him before ever telling those kids anything. I have a very big problem with this idea that a child is more the mother's than the father's because she gives birth and thus she gets more say in the decisions of the child. If she wants all the say than she doesn't deserve the child support money we've been scraping together. (We have heard that one of the mothers uses the Child support money to pay for things that are in no way for the benefit of this child)

[Linda/NE]

Originally posted by aztec_judy
my prayers for you and yours, things will work out. Keep your chin up, ok?
Thank you for your kind words and insight. :)

[Linda/NE]

Originally posted by AnnW
[BI wouldn't think that these children are after money seeing that the mother's never sought child support all these years. I can imagine it's more out of curiosity and perhaps wanting to have a stable father figure in their lives since you said that they never really had one.
Please feel free to vent here anytime. That's what we are here for. [/B]

Both the mothers did go after child support. The first one did a month before our wedding in hopes of breaking us up (so I've heard). Both of the mother's treated dh like dirt and did and said some extremely mean and hurtful things to him because he wasn't continuing the relationship with them. (The whole woman scorned syndrome). The second one even started rumors around his hometown (which is very close to my hometown) that he had 5 women pregnant at the same time. The more serious our relationship got, the meaner and more vengeful they became. Their opinion was that it was dh's fault, that he pressured them into it. I dated him for 3 years before we got married and when I said NO he respected that. He is human and a man and if he made a move and they didn't object I hardly see that as his fault.

I would like to believe that this boy is seeking out a stable father figure. I could even accept and possibly even enjoy having him in our lives if that were the case. I have seen these women manipulate dh and make him believe this or that, only to go back on their words and do something to hurt him. I don't trust either mother any farther than I could throw them!!

[Linda/NE]

Originally posted by Diane P.

I guess this is why I kind of feel for Linda's dh's son. I can totally see where Linda is coming from... and I don't blame her for wanting to be careful, but her dh's son and my dh are pretty much in the same boat, except in this case it's the son looking for and wanting a relationship with his father. Like Verle, Linda's having issues. What made it hard was that we knew that his biological mother really wanted this relationship... but her hands were tied. We know she really resented him a lot for not allowing it... and I think that is probably what finally changed his mind.

Every family is different though... I know we weren't the only ones who felt the hurt... what happened (him meeting his biological mom) totally changed our lives. What works for some may not work for others. Dh's side of the family knows that we don't want/expect anything from them, and we made that perfectly clear right from the beginning. Legally, Dh is no longer her son... and she is no longer his mother. We owe each other... nothing.

Please keep us updated Linda.. (((((HUGS))))) I'm so sorry you're having to go through this. I know it isn't easy...

Like I posted above, if it was just the boy we had to adjust to it might be okay and even enjoyable. I don't trust the mothers. Also, dh deserved the right to be informed of what was going on with these kids' lives. He never said he didn't want anything to do with them--the mothers made that decision. He thought he was doing the right thing by stepping back and letting them have things their way rather than pulling the kids through the court system. He just couldn't win for losing. Had they been willing to let dh be part of their lives we wouldn't have thought twice about keeping it from our kids. It's just so unfair that the mothers keep us teetering at the end of the rope only to pull up or let go when ever their vengeful hearts desire.

I guess I don't really like to talk about this because it's so hard to make others understand how I feel without coming across as a *itch.

The first kids is almost 18 and other is almost 16. Which also brings up a red flag for me--Seems more than coincidental that he would be contacted so close to the kid getting ready to go to college. I wouldn't be surprised if the mother isn't trying to find some way to get the Child support extended or something to pay for the kid's college. Our own kids will have to rely on pell grants, scholarships and working to get through college--there's no reason dh should have to give this kid a special handout he won't be able to give our own kids. KWIM?

Thanks for your kinds words :)

[aztec_judy]

Linda/NE, Your more than welcome.
When I first found out about my being adopted, we were at the breakfast table. I went to school in a daze that day. Am not sure at all how I got thru the day.
But I will say this much, as I have said there are many sides to the coin. I know that my "adoptive MOM" cared in her own strange way. OK... I will give her that much. But she was a cruel heartless person.
I am adopted, yes, have parents NO. As to whether they are living today?? have no idea. Do I wonder about it all ?? YES. Do I feel empty?? YES. Would I like to know much about them or meet them, bio's that is? I dont' know.
I am also a step-mother, I have two step daughters; they each have two children. But I made it very clear to them, I am NOT your mother, and its a place I shall NEVER attempt to fill. But I am your step-mother so lets leave it at that.
I have NO idea as to why I was put up for adoption, and most times am not sure if I want to know. But yes the emptiness is there. A hole in my life that may never be filled. But that is my own choice, because of circumstances.
And I have battled with every question that has entered my mind plus some that ya'll have all brought up here. But I suppose because of my upbringing am not willing, not yet, to try to search only to be hurt and rejected by my bio's.
In many ways am happy now. My husband has helped me soo much to GET thru things that I am not sure I want to upset that part with finding any thing more out. So it may just end up being an "empty hole" in my life. But its a choice that I have made.
I will soon be 51, so in someways it just don't matter anymore. I suppose because I have built a great relationship with my husband who DOES love me, and have been building a new start with my girls.
I know I mite in this one not be making much sense of it all. But I know its choices that I have made, and atleast I now know what their names were/ are and to some extent, tiny as it may be, who I am. So for now am willing to leave it at that.
So yes, there are many sides to the coin, an many ways of seeing things, and we must each make choices, but those choices are very, very hard to make depending on each individuals circumstances in it.
But its choices that I have made, and end the end, its what I shall have to live with. Whether right or wrong. It is my own choice.

[AnnW]

Linda...so he has paid child support through out the years? I got confused cause you had said that when he found out the first one was using it for cigarettes and beer he stopped. I can see why you are angry that your dh has no rights or hasn't asserted his rights but is being honorable and paying. I really do. But is that the child's fault? Most child support ends at 18. Do you have an official court order child support agreement?
I know you didn't ask for advice, but here goes LOL You have every right to every emotion you are feeling. Yes, your dh has gotten a raw deal from these women. Yes, they should have consulted him on decisions made regarding his children. But that didn't happen. These are his bio children, he never terminated his rights and has paid child support. These kids do have a right to at least meet him. Let him explain that he's not the dead beat dad that he's been portrayed to be.
I truly hope this works out with a good positive ending.
And sweetie, I hope I haven't stepped on your toes.

[Mickey]

I agree with Ann.

Linda...if he's been paying child support for both of them all these years, didn't you encourage him to pursue visitation? The fact that the mothers are bitches would have been all the more reason to do that, imo. They needed a dad in their lives when they were little, but they didn't get that and it's too late for that now, but it's not too late to try to make things right.

I can truly understand your wanting the women out of your lives completely when they were causing problems for you--I'm sure it made things much easier up until recently. But that doesn't change the fact that the children are innocent.

Sounds like your dh might have regrets now and I think it's admirable of him to want to get to know his children.

JMHO, mind you.

[Linda/NE]

Originally posted by AnnW
Linda...so he has paid child support through out the years? I got confused cause you had said that when he found out the first one was using it for cigarettes and beer he stopped. I can see why you are angry that your dh has no rights or hasn't asserted his rights but is being honorable and paying. I really do. But is that the child's fault? Most child support ends at 18. Do you have an official court order child support agreement?
I know you didn't ask for advice, but here goes LOL You have every right to every emotion you are feeling. Yes, your dh has gotten a raw deal from these women. Yes, they should have consulted him on decisions made regarding his children. But that didn't happen. These are his bio children, he never terminated his rights and has paid child support. These kids do have a right to at least meet him. Let him explain that he's not the dead beat dad that he's been portrayed to be.
I truly hope this works out with a good positive ending.
And sweetie, I hope I haven't stepped on your toes.

At first he willingly gave the first mother money whenever she asked and paid many of her medical/doctor bills. He stopped when she abused the money. She sued for an official order a month before our wedding as I told you before.

Yes, he's had an official order on both of them.

Mickey--he hasn't pursued rights and I did not encourage him to because that costs MONEY. Something we had next to none of. All of the mother's legal needs for the child were taken care of by the state. Fathers, especially when this first occurred, were not given any free legal aid. A few years later one case came up for review he was able to get free legal aid which is when we found out how the county attorney screwed dh before. That county attorney was supposed to give dh a number for free legal advice. The legal advice he did give dh was either misleading (in her favor) or out right wrong. DH however would not have gotten free legal aid to go for visitation rights. Not sure why. By this time the children were quite a bit older and he felt no need to disrupt their lives, not to mention tick the mother's off.

Is this the child's fault? NO. But it's not mine or my kids' fault either. Our lives shouldn't be disrupted because the mother suddenly felt an urge to rid herself of some guilt or whatever. There is absolutely no consideration for us what so ever. Yes, I knew about these kids but dh and I were just respecting the mother's wishes. That doesn't make this partially my fault. Our marriage was set on a foundation that these children would never be in our lives. There was no reason to believe that it would suddenly change and it's not fair for the mother to allow the change without dh's consultation.

I know a big reason for feeling as I do is that I am the outsider here. In the best case senario, we tell the kids, they accept it, and a relationship continues with this child.

I have no blood connection to this child and we'd still have to deal with the mother from time to time. There's a big chance I'll end up looking like the bad guy here--and I did nothing wrong!!
:{

I know it's not right to think/feel this way, but I don't see the need to help one child with his emotional hurts at the expense of 5 other children who could/would be sent on a roller coaster of emotional hurt. My kids are basically happy and content as they are. With so many children living dysfunctional lives why should I want to take the chance of ruining their lives and possilby putting them in that category?? What do I have to gain from it??

I know no one really understands what I'm saying or feeling. I guess I just have a typical mother's instinct to protect her own.

I know you all have the best intentions and are not directly trying to hurt my feelings or step on my toes. This is just another one of the things in my life that is full of injustices that will never be corrected.

I don't think there is any way to explain my feelings/ my side. Unless someone's been in my shoes they don't know.

Thanks for listening anyway.

[Diane]

Originally posted by Linda/NE
I know no one really understands what I'm saying or feeling. I guess I just have a typical mother's instinct to protect her own.

I know you all have the best intentions and are not directly trying to hurt my feelings or step on my toes. This is just another one of the things in my life that is full of injustices that will never be corrected.

I don't think there is any way to explain my feelings/ my side. Unless someone's been in my shoes they don't know.

Thanks for listening anyway.

(((((LINDA))))) You can't help the way you feel... and I don't blame you for wanting to protect your children, I would too. I guess I'm seeing everything more from the son's point of view... seeing that's pretty much where my dh was. I know how much finding his birth mother meant to dh, and that's why I can't really blame your dh's son for being curioius as to who his father was. I'm thinking that this was probably something that was on his mind and he probably begged and bugged his mother for some answer's until she finally gave him the information he was looking for. She probably should have called and talked with your dh first... but she probably did it without too much thought as to how it was going to affect you guy's. (which was wrong) Maybe you won't have to deal with her at all... I hope not.

I'm sorry for what you're having to go through... I hope everything works out for all of you.

Diane...

[Mickey]

Originally posted by Linda/NE
...Is this the child's fault? NO. But it's not mine or my kids' fault either. Our lives shouldn't be disrupted because the mother suddenly felt an urge to rid herself of some guilt or whatever. There is absolutely no consideration for us what so ever. Yes, I knew about these kids but dh and I were just respecting the mother's wishes. That doesn't make this partially my fault. Our marriage was set on a foundation that these children would never be in our lives. There was no reason to believe that it would suddenly change and it's not fair for the mother to allow the change without dh's consultation.

I know a big reason for feeling as I do is that I am the outsider here. In the best case senario, we tell the kids, they accept it, and a relationship continues with this child.

I have no blood connection to this child and we'd still have to deal with the mother from time to time. There's a big chance I'll end up looking like the bad guy here--and I did nothing wrong!!
:{
Yes, but this wasn't suddenly sprung on you...you knew this from day one.


Originally posted by Linda/NE
...I know it's not right to think/feel this way, but I don't see the need to help one child with his emotional hurts at the expense of 5 other children who could/would be sent on a roller coaster of emotional hurt. My kids are basically happy and content as they are. With so many children living dysfunctional lives why should I want to take the chance of ruining their lives and possilby putting them in that category?? What do I have to gain from it??
You are so right...it's sad when kids suffer because of the choices adults make, but his two other kids have the same right to his time, love and money as his five with you and they've been deprived of that for most of their lives so far.


Originally posted by Linda/NE
...I know no one really understands what I'm saying or feeling. I guess I just have a typical mother's instinct to protect her own.
You are so right again...we don't truly understand. But as an outsider looking at it, I have to feel for all the children--who are totally innocent. Like I said, the adults can make decisions, place blame, make excuses and feel resentment for each other, but what's most important is the children--who didn't ask for all this. I think that finding a balance so that they can all feel loved and accepted is important. Think about how much worse it could have been for you and your kids--they could have showed up on your doorstep at 10 years old saying who they were in front of your kids and asking to live with you.

And I know this reply probably sounds judgmental and I'm sorry for that because I would be like a mama bear, too. Really, I would. I didn't marry someone with children, Linda, but I was engaged to a guy with a 3 yo before I married my dh and I knew there was no way I could live my life dealing with his ex and the child being a total brat and my not being able to say a word to him--I told him to sit back and put his seatbelt on in the car once and my fiancé told me to never tell his son what to do. I realized then that I couldn't do it and eventually moved on, but before I moved on, I imagined this kid as a mouthy, out-of-control 13 yo sitting across the dinner table from my beautiful little princesses on weekends and I didn't like the scene. However, I knew that if I chose to marry him, I had to accept his past, his child, his ex, and all that goes with that and that I couldn't knowingly go into something and then complain about it or try to deny it or change it.

Well, I'll leave it at that. And I'm sorry if I stepped on your toes, too...I'm honestly not trying to hurt you or make you feel bad--I'm just really hoping that you can eventually see things from your dh's and his other kids' POV and soften your heart to the idea of them being in your lives.

[Amy]

Originally posted by Mickey

However, I knew that if I chose to marry him, I had to accept his past, his child, his ex, and all that goes with that and that I couldn't knowingly go into something and then complain about it or try to deny it or change it.



I agree 100% with this statement Mickey!

If anything Linda, you were probably very naive to think these kids would never want anything to do or be curious about their Father. I know you wish they never existed and that you get to have the life you dreamed of. Unfortunately, reality is upon you and now you have to deal with the stuff you have been wanting to sweep under the rug.

Why don't you and dh meet with this child alone and see what he wants? That might give you a chance to size up what he wants from dh and if its a good idea to bring him into the fold or not. I'll tell you this, secrets will always come back and bite you in the butt. You can't possibly think that your kids will be in the dark forever about this. Either you can tell them and explain things, or they will eventually hear it around town and it will be much more chaotic. Wouldn't you rather control the information that is given to them?

I also agree that I probably can't see what your going through, but like Mickey, as an outsider, I can have more perspective of the WHOLE picture. If you play your cards right, I don't think anyone has to lose or suffer. Meet with this child with dh. I think that is the first step in getting control of your life again.

[aztec_judy]

Linda, Maybe what ya'll need to do, if you can, is find a law book on the rights of both bio parents and find out what it says about the whole mess. Then go from there. That might be the easiest thing to do, espcially since your going to have to still contend with an 16 yr old. OK...
That will tell ya'll what your rites are.
I know being involved with TOUGHLOVE, in calif, I found the Law Book Store and bought the book pertaining to all children under the age of 18.
I have no idea about other states, but in calif, if the child goes onto college then the child support has to continue to be paid.
But if he does not go on to college then the support can be stopped at the age of 19, for boys. Have no idea why its that way for boys. Where the girls is stopped at 18 ?? hmmm
But found that out from parents with a troublesome son, they were responsible for him til he turned 19. (but that was california, back in 1992.)
But that was the best book we ever bought. And it could be a great help to ya'll. Like that you KNOW what the law is and the mothers might think hard about going any further once dh can like "toss" the LAW back into their face (so to speak).
And yes, its very hard, and it can cause you to feel as you do, thats for sure.
But this is something else ya need to think about also. ARE you willing to have your children find out from ya'll or a family member or some stranger ??? Are you willing & able to take the backlash it can cause, if they find out the wrong way???
You might think your protecting them now. Only to find out that they are willing to meet their half brothers. Which could cause hurt feelings between everyone involved.
But I would get the book first and have a great heart to heart with hubby then make choices/decisions...
I hope I haven't stepped on any toes here ...
but my twin girls when they decided they wanted to "FIND" their twin brothers .... wellll ... it was either get the info for them or they were threatening to go on either Oprah or Sally Jessey Raphel .... And NOOOOOO thanks I was not going on tv nor have it aired on tv .. today they talk to each other about 2 times a year.
So chin up ... buy the book .. have a great big pow-wow... then take it from there... yes ??? no ??? Hell(O) NOO..,.. hmmm
seeee yaaa
shutting down now for sure... rain has started up again ... hmmmmm ah well such is life.. lolol
seeeee yaaaaa.....

[littlesista06]

Wow. What a load, Linda. I can and can't imagine what you're feeling.
I have somewhat of a personal perspective on this. My dad had kids from a previous marriage and once he and my mom divorced, he didn't have much to do with me, and of course the kids didn't either. However, when I was older, I met up with those "kids" and it has been the best thing I've ever done. And, they don't look upon me as 'the kid from dad's other wife', or as someone coming around to see what I could gain from them. They never once thought getting to know me would ruin their lives. However, what I did gain is not something anyone can put a price tag on. (Yeah, I know, sappy!) LOL They call me the "missing link" to their lives.

I truly believe that you cannot/should not try to hide these children of your dh's. You knew the circumstances when you married, he never kept that from you, you took him for better or worse :) and it's time to face the fact that they are kids of his, they are around, and they want and are entitled to some kind of relationship with their "father". It's not the time to be a victim and hope they will disappear because you don't want them in your life, or fear they will disrupt the life you've created for your family. He chose YOU and your kids for goodness sake - you are not victims in this.

If ya'll don't deal with this you will live the rest of your life proverbially looking over your shoulder, wondering if the next phone call is from one of them. Hell, if they get up enough nerve, they may show up on your doorstep and THEN what will you do?? How could you THEN tell your children that you knew of them, but kept them a secret all this time? I promise you, they'll ask "well, mom and dad, what ELSE have you kept from us??" If you approach your children in the most positive way possible, and tell them dh's history (abbreviated version, of course) they may surprise you and not be as devastated as you are so sure they will be. And if they are, wouldn't it be better that they heard it from the two people they have always known they can trust instead of it being thrown in their face? It's not really about "you". It's about your dh and his past, but the fact that it's coming into the present, you have a voice, but it's not your choice to keep them apart.

Try to image if your dh was not in the picture, and your kids were now trying to make contact with him and they were being refused by him and his wife. The one that he's made a relationship with, had kids with that he's loved, supported and cared for...

[Linda/NE]

I appreciate your honesty and insights, I really do.

This is just something I have to deal with in time. Yes, I'm sure I'll meet him and eventually the kids will know. This has always been a fear that I now have to deal with.

To be honest, yes I would like these two kids and their mothers to disappear from the face of the earth (lol) but I know they won't.
I know these kids can't help the situation they were put in.
Right now I'm just MAD-- at the mothers, the court system, dh's parents for their handling of the situation, society in general for their view of absent fathers, society's influence to link every bad thing in a person's life back to their parents (or lack of), and yes even dh for getting involved with these women in the first place.

So if it's okay let's just leave it at that---- I'm mad.

I have way too many things to deal with first before I can handle another life changing situation. Speaking of which I have other things I need to be doing and I think it's time to drop this discussion.
Dh is starting back to work tomorrow (after being off a week because he got 2nd and 3rd degree burns on the job) I have to open at 6:30 tomorrow and we have a lot of activities going on this week. I seriously doubt I'll be back on here much before the weekend if even then.
Thanks --

[Mickey]

I understand, Linda...we're saying things you obviously don't want to hear. And I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but you've been blaming your dh and these two women (and inadvertently the two kids) and now your blaming the court system, dh's parents and society for something in which you were an active, knowing participant.

Your dh made the decisions he made when he was young (under age in one situation) and clueless, but you married him and brought five children into the mix as an informed adult. You were an active participant and the fact that it's all coming down on you now, after years of being in denial and hoping you never had to face it, doesn’t make you an innocent victim.

I could see your not wanting to take any responsibility for this situation if your dh had deceived you and you just found out about his past and his other children. THEN I could totally understand your feeling like a victim and being so mad. But you aren't a victim and you need to own the part you played in this and take charge of the situation. Sitting back and wishing it would go away didn't work in the past and it's not going to work now.

How you handle this will have a huge impact on how your kids handle it—if you're traumatized, victimized and angry, they will see that and it will be the same for them. Please think long and hard about all we have written. While I know it's not what you wanted to hear, we really do care about you and want you to have peace and happiness in your life and every one of us has said the same thing in different ways. I hope you think about it and pray for peace in your heart and for the strength to do the right thing.

(((((((((Linda))))))))))

Mickey

[Diane]

Originally posted by Mickey
I understand, Linda...we're saying things you obviously don't want to hear. And I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but you've been blaming your dh and these two women (and inadvertently the two kids) and now your blaming the court system, dh's parents and society for something in which you were an active, knowing participant.

Your dh made the decisions he made when he was young (under age in one situation) and clueless, but you married him and brought five children into the mix as an informed adult. You were an active participant and the fact that it's all coming down on you now, after years of being in denial and hoping you never had to face it, doesn’t make you an innocent victim.

I could see your not wanting to take any responsibility for this situation if your dh had deceived you and you just found out about his past and his other children. THEN I could totally understand your feeling like a victim and being so mad. But you aren't a victim and you need to own the part you played in this and take charge of the situation. Sitting back and wishing it would go away didn't work in the past and it's not going to work now.

How you handle this will have a huge impact on how your kids handle it—if you're traumatized, victimized and angry, they will see that and it will be the same for them. Please think long and hard about all we have written. While I know it's not what you wanted to hear, we really do care about you and want you to have peace and happiness in your life and every one of us has said the same thing in different ways. I hope you think about it and pray for peace in your heart and for the strength to do the right thing.

(((((((((Linda))))))))))

Mickey

Very well said Mickey... Good luck Linda. I hope everything works out in a way that everyone can be happy.

Diane

[Linda/NE]

Originally posted by Mickey

Your dh made the decisions he made when he was young (under age in one situation) and clueless, but you married him and brought five children into the mix as an informed adult. You were an active participant and the fact that it's all coming down on you now, after years of being in denial and hoping you never had to face it, doesn’t make you an innocent victim.

I could see your not wanting to take any responsibility for this situation if your dh had deceived you and you just found out about his past and his other children. THEN I could totally understand your feeling like a victim and being so mad. But you aren't a victim and you need to own the part you played in this and take charge of the situation. Sitting back and wishing it would go away didn't work in the past and it's not going to work now.

How you handle this will have a huge impact on how your kids handle it—if you're traumatized, victimized and angry, they will see that and it will be the same for them. Please think long and hard about all we have written. While I know it's not what you wanted to hear, we really do care about you and want you to have peace and happiness in your life and every one of us has said the same thing in different ways. I hope you think about it and pray for peace in your heart and for the strength to do the right thing.

(((((((((Linda))))))))))

Mickey

I understand the point you are trying to make but I'm sorry this is NOT my fault. If you have ever been in any kind of relationship whether it be romantic, parental or just friendship and the other party is extremely adamant about cutting all ties and severing any contact, you eventually have to face the fact that there is no future there. You have to move on with your life and make decisions based on the information you have available. If you base your whole life on possibilities or what ifs you'll drive yourself insane and never really move on with your life at all. Had dh and I obsessed over trying to get his rights and saving a place for these children in our lives we would have missed out and deprived our own children of some wonderful experiences. Futhermore if we would have told our kids upfront from the beginning and it was them now that went to look for these kids, we'd still be the bad guys for not letting sleeping dogs lie. Just as the mothers felt they had to right to deprive dh of contact with his children all these years, dh felt he had to right to move on with his life and cut all ties with the past.

Think back to any times in your life when you let go of something or someone and moved on. How would you feel now if that thing/person were drop back into your life out of the blue and expect something from you??

How many of the decisions you are making about your children now are based on the information you have currently available knowing full well there are other situations that could in the future make these bad decisions?? You're fooling yourself if you honestly believe that you would never make that kind of decision. Hindsight is always 20/20.

No, you are not saying what I want to hear, but I didn't come here for that. I did come here though to express the another side which few of you are familar with and for some understanding without having the blame being thrown in my face. Sure I could have made other decisions (like not marrying dh; like telling our kids about other siblings) but I didn't!! I made the best decisions I felt I could make at that time based on the information I had.

Yes, I am mad and I do blame alot of others because they made decisions which affected my life. I was not really an active participant and I definitely did not have control over much of anything that happened in this situation. Things were thrown at me and I had to react. I'd like to see how anyone of the rest of you would have acted under these circumstances. There is nothing more frustrating that being in the middle of a situation, (which you did nothing directly to cause in the first place), and other people are at the controls guiding your life on a certain path that you can't just bail out of.

Maybe I sound like a heartless, bitter person because I feel I've been cheated. The next time you find yourself in a situation where others are making decisions that affect you and you have absolutely no say maybe you will better understand where I'm coming from.
:{

[Amy]

Linda, the only fault I see is that you fell in love with a man with A LOT of baggage. Everyone has baggage, it just how much you can tolerate. I think you thoroughly thought out your choices before marrying him and the only thing you didn't consider at the time is the change in intention of the boys. They are your wildcard because they are probably very curious to know about their father and are seeking him out now that they are of age. I'm not sure how much of the mother's influence is in that decision, but the fact that she kept them out of your life for this long, makes me think that this is the boy's idea.

It's not your fault that your dh didn't have enough sense to wear protection and fathered two kids, I understand your resentment in that and how that affects your life and the your kids. It would have been much better if you were prepared for something like this to happen. Like you said hindsight is always 20/20. You need to get some contol of this. I'd still meet privately with your dh and the boy and see what he wants. He might just want to talk to his Dad and that be the end of it. You can see if he would be a good influence on your children/lives or not. You don't need to be in a state of constant reaction anymore. You can help make decisions, but make educated ones by meeting the boy first.

Also, I am confused about other points (there will probably be other editd forms through out the day so I can wrap my head around this-LOL)

Did he have one of these children while you were dating him? I know your oldest is 14yrs old and the other child is 16 yrs old and you said you dated him for 3 years before marrying him. If this is the case, then I can see why you are so hopping mad, but it should be towards dh not the boy's mother.

One last thing, you are my friend and I'm not treating you any different than I would any other friend of mine. Any of my friends will tell you, that I am no different in "real" life. If I say anything that is coming off hard or too close to home, I'm sorry, but for me the only way is the straight forward way. Being a Yankee, I'm not good at sugar coating things ( LOL) and I also want you to know I respect you for even bringing this up to the board.

[AnnW]

Linda, I know you are feeling very attacked right now. I also realize you are probably just venting more than anything. But we were just trying to toss out different points of views too. Please know it's just because we care. If we didn't, we would even bother trying to understand.
You always have a place here to vent, cry, laugh, ask for advice, get advice whether you want it or not and celebrate your successes.

[Amy]

I have been thinking quite a bit about this and trying to see your side of it and I think I have something quite comparable.

Remember when I thought my dh was going to war RIGHT before he was supposed to retire? I was scared to death and acting angry at the world because I had no say or control over the situation. Dh joined the Army before I met him and the Army owned him 100%. All I was left was the thought that my dh was going to be sent home in a casket and my children would be fatherless. Actually, if anyone remembers there was a huge convoy explosion in Northern Iraq and then very little was said about it afterwards. That is because there were a lot of special forces there and they Army keeps there whereabouts and deaths covert because they are always undercover. Needless to say, a lot of co-workers are "MIA". That could have been so easily been my dh. So yes, I feel your resentment at not having control in the decisions that were made. Some people on the board expressed sorrow for me, but still pointed out that I knew what I was getting into when I married him and the possibilities. I totally accepted the possibilities, I was just mad that it came down to 3 weeks before his retirement.

After my initial breakdown, I had to come to grips with the reality that I DIDN'T have control of it, yet I had every control over how I was going to handle it. I stepped up to the plate and turned it over to God. If my dh turned up in a casket, then that was the choice of God and I would accept the fact with dignity for dh, my kids, myself and my country. There is a lot of power in letting go of the unknown and seeking out what you CAN control. That is why I keep stressing the fact to meet with this boy and stop stressing over the what-ifs.

Thats it from me.

[aztec_judy]

Linda/NE... would you please find a law book store and ya'll buy the book & read it and learn what ya'lls rites are ... OK ...
That is the one thing I think would help ya'll with what is yet to come ok.
The law book I read, like I said was california 1992 ?? 1993 ?? And I know from that it helped me to help others there.
But I do understand some of what your going thru. Because as step- parents have NO rites when it comes to the blood rites of the child / parent. Except maybe thru a power of attorney letter. But even in that if things are not covered then what is not covered is no rites again ...
In having to deal with my own step children I have had to learn just how far those rites could go and what is fully entailed ...
and it is a veryyy !!! infuriating time to go thru for sure. But atleast with finding out what the law books have to say you will then know what his rites are; which I pray will help ya both out alot. OK ???
But still keep your chin up.. it will work out, eventually. My prayers are with all of you.
seeee yaaaaa....

[Judy]

"I want dh to end the relationship and tell our kids nothing. dh wants to tell the kids and keep the relationship going. I don't trust the kid and can't help but feel that the mother is putting the kid up to this so she can find out if we're hiding money from her or something."

I think there's another thing to consider here. These are your husbands kids, and as you stated, he wants to have a relationship with them. I think that if you discourage him, there is a chance that he may resent that in the years to come.

If you truly feel that they're only out for your money, well, the truth is that regardless of the fact that you and your children are innocent in all this, his children still deserve to have been taken of financially throughout the years, and that continues now. If he feels uncomfortable giving the cash to their mothers, he can certainly take care of their needs himself as in purchasing sneakers, clothing and such.

I think you should consider yourself lucky that their mothers were not taking child support throughout all these years, and that they're not sueing for back child support at this time.

Regarding your statement that you think they're being sent there to see if you're hiding any money, again...if this became a legal battle, you'd have to disclose all financial information anyway.

Also keep in mind that all these terms of him staying out of their lives happened years ago and people grow and change. These children are his flesh and blood and he wants to be part of their lives. You certainly wouldn't want him regretting missing this chance later in his years.

[Linda/NE]

Originally posted by Amy/CO


Also, I am confused about other points (there will probably be other editd forms through out the day so I can wrap my head around this-LOL)

Did he have one of these children while you were dating him? I know your oldest is 14yrs old and the other child is 16 yrs old and you said you dated him for 3 years before marrying him. If this is the case, then I can see why you are so hopping mad, but it should be towards dh not the boy's mother.

One last thing, you are my friend and I'm not treating you any different than I would any other friend of mine. Any of my friends will tell you, that I am no different in "real" life. If I say anything that is coming off hard or too close to home, I'm sorry, but for me the only way is the straight forward way. Being a Yankee, I'm not good at sugar coating things ( LOL) and I also want you to know I respect you for even bringing this up to the board.

Well Hmmm, maybe my Math is off... I guess I'll just give you a little history lesson LOL. We met in the middle of Oct. 1986. He had just broke up with her a week or so before. She saw us together and assumed we were dating when in fact we were just friends. She drilled him about how serious we were, etc. One day she told him she thought she was pregnant. He asked if she'd been to the doctor. She said no, that she knew she was the night it happened. He told her to go to the doctor and make sure. He didn't hear from her again and assumed it was just a ploy to try to win him back. Months down the road he hears reports from their home town that she is pregnant with his kid and that he also has 4 other women pregnant. He contacted her at this point and she claimed it was his but she wanted nothing to do with him. She promised to never sue for child support. When she applied for welfare they made her sue for it. The child was born in July
Dh and I were married in June of 1989 so I guess this was just 4 months short of 3 years that we dated. Even less if you consider we were just friends for a few months too. So the child was born when we just started dating, but dh never cheated on me. (the reason he broke up with her , if I remember correctly,is that he had suspicions that she was cheating on him) So this July he will 17.

Amy, what has been going through my mind a lot lately is that I want to be in control of how this all plays out. I think dh finally realizes that too, because he did tell the boy that our kids don't know and we're not ready to tell them yet. He also explained to him that I'm having a hard time with this. I don't know which one suggested it, but they've talked about me meeting him with out the kids. I guess that's the next step. Thanks for your kind words and gentle explanation. I Know others on the board are trying to relay the same kind of message but I guess the delivery just sat wrong with me. Thanks!!:)

[Linda/NE]

Originally posted by AnnW
Linda, I know you are feeling very attacked right now. I also realize you are probably just venting more than anything. But we were just trying to toss out different points of views too. Please know it's just because we care. If we didn't, we would even bother trying to understand.
You always have a place here to vent, cry, laugh, ask for advice, get advice whether you want it or not and celebrate your successes.

Thank you. I know no one intentionally tried to hurt my feelings I was just feeling like the whole situation was being shifted to make me out to be the 'bad guy.' Thanks for being a friend.:)

[Linda/NE]

Aztec Judy-
Thank you for your information. We may look into that. According to the court order we have, it is our understanding that he only had to pay until the child turns 18. I don't believe there is anything in there concerning college. My greatest fears with this is that 1) the mother wants to find out our financial situation for sure and then somehow get a court to grant her more money for the last 2 years and/or make dh pay for college or 2) she wants the kid to build up dh's ego and when he's sucked in than hit him up for money for college. (Either way if dh were forced to give her more money we'd have to go on welfare ourselves)


Originally posted by Judy


I think I stated this earlier. He has paid child support for both of them. Yes the [B]children deserved to be taken care of financially. We have heard reports from mutual friends that at least one of the mothers was not using the money for anything directly related to the child's needs (and then had the nerve to criticize dh for not paying more money ) In that case I don't feel the mother deserves one red cent. I would have rather seen this money being put in a savings account which the child would have access to when he goes to college or reaches the age of 18 or 21. Somehow anyway where the money would be go to the child for his needs, not for the mother to support her alcohol/cigarette habit or spend on things for herself.

I invite them to investigate our finances. I guarantee if the mothers knew how poor we really are they would discourage the kids from contacting dh in fear we'd be asking them for money!! LOL

[AnnW]

Linda..well, you are the bad guy! LOL :newwink: I think meeting him first is a wonderful idea! You will get a chance to be part of the planning on what happens next. You will also get a chance to use your "mom-dar". I would not have let my ds meet his birthmother at this time, if I had not felt good about her when I met her first.
Take care.

[LadyKris]

Well, I didn't read every post, but I think I got the gist of what everyone was saying here.

I had a friend who got pregnant at age 17. She her self was adopted and had never known her birth parents. Her family was very well off, with both her parents working for the government. I had talked to her about keeping her baby, tellling her since her family was well off and that with her mother helping out a bit that she could even go on and finish school or get her GED (she dropped out when she found out she was Pregnant). I believe that her mother would have been all for it except that she didn't like the father and didn't want her to see him. The father had said he'd make the commitment if she decided to keep the baby, and be there for her (which he was, I must give him credit for that). Well, since her mother didn't like the father she told her she had to give the baby up and never see the guy again. Anyway, I think she might have anyway, but I do think she did consider keeping it. She did have an extravagent life style which would have to give up, and that could have been a factor too. Anyway, her and that guy are still together and plan to get married. I don't know... I don't feel sorry for her, because I know she could have (if she got a job) have taken care of the baby and that her mother was being very unfair just becuase of who the father was (He did stick with her though and sought out a job to help support the baby if she decided to keep it, so he wasn't a dead beat). I think sometimes parental factors can affect it too. I don't know, that was just my friends experience... Now she doesn't even act like anything ever happened.
My father was raised by my grandmother, whom was a single mother. The guy completly disowned my father, never paid a cent of child support and said she slept around (out of spite for that she still gave my father his last name). Her mother wanted her to go out of state to have the baby, and say it was her mother's, but she didn't. Everyone treated her like she had a disease. She took the best care of her child as she could, she loved him and made sure he was taken care of. Her mother did take part in caring (watching him while she was at work and such) and loved him too. She did marry a guy (my grandfather) whom was a mean S.O.B. , but still did make sure he was well cared for. I think she did the best she could and made sure his needs were met.

I guess it differs from each person and we really can't judge... I personally wouldn't feel right about adoption....

[Linda/NE]

Oh this is an old thread!

I think the key phrase here is "every situation is different" . When faced with a situation a person deals with it in the best way they know how. Some people take on a vengeful attitude, others a defensive attitude, etc.

Without re reading every post I'm pretty sure posts on here dealt with how the mother was doing what she thought was right and (according to some posters) I am wrong to feel cheated and it is my own fault, etc. I think that is what upset me the most with this subject a year ago

It seemed that the mother's actions were justified because she was probably doing what she felt was best at the time, but yet I was wrong for handling things the way I felt was best.

Looking back over the past year and the facts that :
dh never hears from him unless dh calls him (which he does anyway at least once a month), dh has received no thank yous for Christmas or graduation money, dh received no recognition on Father's Day, and even the mother's dad commented that OUR boys look just like dh when he was in school but couldn't say the same for this kids. ----- I don't think I am wrong to feel the way I do and I still don't believe he is dh's kid.


As for the point of this thread--- EVERY situation is different and adoption may not be the answer in every situation. I don't think, however, that putting a child up for adoption should ever be viewed as selfish. In my opinion it is a very admirable thing to do.

Not sure why I felt the urge to reply to this--I really need to get to bed! :)